July 09, 2020, 11:27:51 am

Christianity and Trump

Started by Pete, March 03, 2020, 05:54:10 pm

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Pete

Quote from: LittleRocketBoy on March 05, 2020, 04:59:25 pmWhen all is said and done, we have 3 choices.
Vote for those who hate Christ and want to continue to murder babies.
Vote for nobody.
Vote for the only candidate who is against murdering babies and at least gives the nod to free exercise of religion.

All else is just wasted breath.

Hmm.  I suppose I can understand your viewpoint. But if voting for Trump means sending America further down the path of authoritarianism while systemically destroying our way of law and government, you're OK with that? What happens when the political power shifts and the precedent of authoritarianism has been set and applauded by conservatives? What happens when "those who hate Christ" gain power and use the same authoritarian tactics against Christians?

That doesn't concern you at all?

O0
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

jiminpa

Quote from: Pete on March 05, 2020, 09:02:43 amWe'll probably have to agree to disagree on a number of points here.

First of all, I don't agree that the media is satanic. Much of what I see people classify as "attacks" and "fake news" is really pretty accurate. I'm not saying the media is perfect. Far from it. But oftentimes I see someone complain about an article, read it for myself and think, hmm, that's pretty accurate. On the other hand, when someone posts something from the conservative media machine, it's usually vapid spin, replete with misinformation. Of course, I'm speaking generally, but that's my opinion based on what I've seen and read.

Secondly, I absolutely do not agree that Trump is in any way moving us toward "what the Constitution actually says", but in order to have an objective discourse on that topic, we'd have to define what you mean. I've come to realize that a great many people have very different ideas of what the Constitution actually says. So is there specific text in the Constitution that you believe Trump is moving towards?

O0
Just a quick sample:
https://thefederalist.com/2020/02/29/media-charges-trump-with-calling-coronavirus-a-hoax-he-didnt/

https://thefederalist.com/2019/08/05/media-condemning-white-supremacy-makes-trump-white-supremacist/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/07/29/trumps-new-racist-tweetstorm-is-actually-sign-weakness/#comments-wrapper  Except that what he said wasn't racist.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2019/01/08/facts-donald-trumps-border-wall-address-nation-immigration-shutdown-column/2503981002/  Ripping Trumps comments completely out of context, to the point of changing their meaning.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2019/07/17/donald-trump-racist-president-hates-what-makes-america-great-column/1743525001/

Here's our honest news turning on their own selves.
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/04/trump-has-a-point-in-latest-war-with-cnn.html

But it's not always what they say or print it's just as much what they refuse to report.

When I first heard this song in 1984 it said what I already knew about the media back then. They have gotten bolder in their blatant dishonesty since then.
Quote from: undefinedLyrics
Meat the Press
In a ninety-floor Manhattan address
lives a watchdog called the National Press
and around his collar's written the line
"The Protector Of Our Hearts And Minds"
Hark! Hark! The dog will bark
and we believe this hierarch
but read between the lines and see
this dog's been barking up the wrong tree
Meat The Press
When the ratings point the camera's eye
They can state the facts while telling a lie
and then watchdog shows to the viewers at ten
he's a bloodhound with a pad and pen
can't pin the blame--he's out of reach
just call the dog "His Royal Leech"
we held the rights for heaven's sake
'til we gave this sucker an even break
Meat The Press
When the godless chair the judgment seat
we can thank the godless media elite
they can silence those who fall from their grace
with a note that says "we haven't the space"
well lookee there--the dog's asleep
whenever we march or say a peep
A Christian can't get equal time
Unless he's a looney committing a crime
listen up if you've got ears
I'm tired of condescending sneers
I've got a dog who smells a fight
and he still believes in wrong and right
Meat The Press
Source: LyricFind
Songwriters: Steve Taylor
Meat the Press lyrics © Universal Music Publishing Group, Capitol Christian Music Group
I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.

jiminpa

Quote from: Pete on March 05, 2020, 07:31:47 pmHmm.  I suppose I can understand your viewpoint. But if voting for Trump means sending America further down the path of authoritarianism while systemically destroying our way of law and government, you're OK with that? What happens when the political power shifts and the precedent of authoritarianism has been set and applauded by conservatives? What happens when "those who hate Christ" gain power and use the same authoritarian tactics against Christians?

That doesn't concern you at all?

O0
I don't see that authoritarianism you claim from Trump, but I do see it from the Democrats and media.
I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.

jiminpa

Quote from: Pete on March 05, 2020, 09:56:43 amAlso, let's talk for a moment about gullibility and the willingness of conservatives to believe anything critical of the democrats and beneficial to Mr. Trump.

Here's a prime example; I have seen this article shared on Facebook by many of my conservative friends numerous times; The headline?

Pelosi Diverts $2.4 Billion From Social Security To Cover Impeachment Costs
https://potatriotsunite.com/impeachbill/

This article has been shared on Facebook (as of this posting) 4.4 MILLION times. The only problem? It's completely made-up nonsense.

I mean, think about it for a second. The website is actually called Potatriots Unite. Not exactly a website that sounds like a legit news source. But then actually click on the article. Read it. It's pure satire meant to troll conservatives. Heck, it's emblazoned in the banner at the top of the page, stating "For satire, ridicule and mockery". Their about us page says in part;

"Everything on this website is fiction. It is not a lie and it is not fake news because it is not real. If you believe that it is real, you should have your head examined. Any similarities between this site's pure fantasy and actual people, places, and events are purely coincidental and all images should be considered altered and satirical. See above if you're still having an issue with that satire thing."

And yet, this hasn't stopped countless conservatives from sharing it as if it were the gospel truth all over Facebook multiple millions of times.

It's hard for me to take people who post this kind of stuff seriously when they say that they only care about the truth.

O0
I saw someone post a Babylon Bee article as truth too, thankfully others explained it to them before I saw the post. I've learned the hard way that there are a lot of people who don't understand satire.
I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.

jiminpa

Quote from: Pete on March 05, 2020, 09:02:43 amWe'll probably have to agree to disagree on a number of points here.

First of all, I don't agree that the media is satanic. Much of what I see people classify as "attacks" and "fake news" is really pretty accurate. I'm not saying the media is perfect. Far from it. But oftentimes I see someone complain about an article, read it for myself and think, hmm, that's pretty accurate. On the other hand, when someone posts something from the conservative media machine, it's usually vapid spin, replete with misinformation. Of course, I'm speaking generally, but that's my opinion based on what I've seen and read.

Secondly, I absolutely do not agree that Trump is in any way moving us toward "what the Constitution actually says", but in order to have an objective discourse on that topic, we'd have to define what you mean. I've come to realize that a great many people have very different ideas of what the Constitution actually says. So is there specific text in the Constitution that you believe Trump is moving towards?

O0
Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.


The federal government is only authorized to do what is specifically required or permitted by the constitution. Everything else is against the highest law of the land. The controversy over the meaning is just politicians, supreme court justices, and others who want to give the government illegal power over those of us the constitution protects.

I would challenge you to list the explicit text of the constitution that you believe Trump has violated.

BTW, good job on  creating an active topic. It's nice to have a respectful disagreement. :)
I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.

jiminpa

These constitution-free government zones, (including public schools), are treasonously illegal. Think about it, the government compels us into government buildings where it strips us of our constitutional protections, without the required due process. 
I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.

Pete

Quote from: jiminpa on March 05, 2020, 08:27:02 pmJust a quick sample:
https://thefederalist.com/2020/02/29/media-charges-trump-with-calling-coronavirus-a-hoax-he-didnt/

Hmmm. OK. Mr. Trump was pretty ambiguous and careless with his words, IMO. But even Snopes, which I know many conservatives think has a highly liberal bias, agrees that Mr. Trump did not call the virus itself a hoax. Many news articles I read also made that distinction.

Quote from: jiminpa on March 05, 2020, 08:27:02 pmhttps://thefederalist.com/2019/08/05/media-condemning-white-supremacy-makes-trump-white-supremacist

Hmmm.  Here is a video of Trump's statement after the shootings;
https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2019/08/04/trump-reaction-el-paso-dayton-mass-shootings-sot-nr-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/mass-shootings-in-dayton-and-el-paso-within-13-hours/

The Federalist claims in that article that Mr. Trump condemned white supremacy. But if you watch his roughly two and a half minute statement above, Mr. Trump didn't so much as mention white supremacy. He did say "hate has no place in our country" in that speech, but not once did he make any mention of white supremacy. The Federalist is not being honest in their report about what Mr. Trump actually said.

Quote from: jiminpa on March 05, 2020, 08:27:02 pmhttps://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/07/29/trumps-new-racist-tweetstorm-is-actually-sign-weakness/#comments-wrapper  Except that what he said wasn't racist.

Notwithstanding the fact that this article is clearly labeled "opinion", I would agree that people throw the word, racist, around far too much. However, an opinion piece is not "news", and I don't think enough people realize that. That's why I was very careful to ask for "news articles" for this discussion.

Quote from: jiminpa on March 05, 2020, 08:27:02 pmhttps://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2019/01/08/facts-donald-trumps-border-wall-address-nation-immigration-shutdown-column/2503981002/  Ripping Trumps comments completely out of context, to the point of changing their meaning.

This is also an opinion piece.

Quote from: jiminpa on March 05, 2020, 08:27:02 pmhttps://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2019/07/17/donald-trump-racist-president-hates-what-makes-america-great-column/1743525001/

And yet another opinion...

Quote from: jiminpa on March 05, 2020, 08:27:02 pmHere's our honest news turning on their own selves.
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/04/trump-has-a-point-in-latest-war-with-cnn.html

And this one is labeled "commentary".

Quote from: jiminpa on March 05, 2020, 08:27:02 pmBut it's not always what they say or print it's just as much what they refuse to report.

Yeah, I don't buy this either. Just today I saw a revisionist meme on Facebook talking about how the media didn't cover Cliven Bundy defending the attempted government takeover of his land because it was a prime example of why we needed the second amendment. Of course, that's completely untrue. For weeks the headlines screamed about the standoff. And that's usually the case. In today's online world, very, very little goes unreported.

I was kind of hoping that we would be able to look at an example of an actual NEWS article that you believe is "attacking" Mr. Trump. This is simply two articles from The Federalist making their own claims as to why they think the media is biased, two opinion pieces and one commentary. None of that is "news".

O0
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

Pete

Quote from: jiminpa on March 05, 2020, 08:30:25 pmI don't see that authoritarianism you claim from Trump, but I do see it from the Democrats and media.
I sure do. Mr. Trump has said, and I quote, "Then I have an article two, where I have the right to do whatever I want as President".

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4809509/user-clip-trump-constitution-i-president

Like, yikes. You don't see that as authoritarian?

O0
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

jiminpa

The thing about the opinion pieces is that too many people are not distinguishing between opinion and news, and these elitists love that. They know that they can lie through their teeth, slap and opinion tag on it, but use factual wording, and Trump will now be a racist and misogynist, whether he is or not.

Concerning his Article 2 statement. I don't see the article granting him extraordinary power, and he is citing the constitution so unless he actually crosses the line, that one statement doesn't make him a totalitarian, especially when he is pressing for laws that gut his own power base.

The thing is that as much as we may hate his mouth and his social media antics, the guy is probably the most constitutionally compliant president in my lifetime.

Name any law that he has initiated, or advanced that exceeds the limits of the constitution. I would argue that he has signed budgets that are way illegal, but his options are limited, since there is no possible way Congress will give him a constitutional budget. There's the irony, the first president in 100 years not to trample all over the constitution and people are afraid he's a tyrant. 

I guess this is where our different ways of thinking become equivalent to speaking different languages, to me the filtering, (gatekeeping), and deceptiveness of the media is as plain as the water at the ocean, (or The Point, for us Western Pennsylvanians), and I genuinely don't understand how anyone can not see it. That doesn't just apply to Trump either. I've noticed it since 1982. It's the world's system being the world's system. They have absolute control of the information gateways and we see only what they show us.

I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.

Pete

Quote from: jiminpa on March 05, 2020, 11:36:08 pmThe thing about the opinion pieces is that too many people are not distinguishing between opinion and news, and these elitists love that. They know that they can lie through their teeth, slap and opinion tag on it, but use factual wording, and Trump will now be a racist and misogynist, whether he is or not.

I'm going to place the burden for people knowing the difference between opinion and news on the people reading it. Many people share the same opinion, many don't. But that's really irrelevant. Opinion pieces are just that, opinion, not news.

Besides that, the worst one lying through his teeth is Mr. Trump, and I'm genuinely not trying to be accusatory toward you, but you don't seem to care. Why does Mr. Trump get a pass on the lies?

Quote from: jiminpa on March 05, 2020, 11:36:08 pmConcerning his Article 2 statement. I don't see the article granting him extraordinary power, and he is citing the constitution so unless he actually crosses the line, that one statement doesn't make him a totalitarian, especially when he is pressing for laws that gut his own power base.

I can only imagine the indignation and outrage if Mr. Obama had declared during a speech, "I can do whatever I want."

You're correct in that one that statement doesn't make him a totalitarian, but the sum of his words and actions over the past three years sure point in that direction. Also, saying "I can do whatever I want" is not citing the Constitution any more than someone saying that they're citing that John 3:16 says Jesus is a real cool dude. The two bear absolutely no resemblance.

Quote from: jiminpa on March 05, 2020, 11:36:08 pmThe thing is that as much as we may hate his mouth and his social media antics, the guy is probably the most constitutionally compliant president in my lifetime.

Name any law that he has initiated, or advanced that exceeds the limits of the constitution. I would argue that he has signed budgets that are way illegal, but his options are limited, since there is no possible way Congress will give him a constitutional budget. There's the irony, the first president in 100 years not to trample all over the constitution and people are afraid he's a tyrant.

I guess this is where our different ways of thinking become equivalent to speaking different languages, to me the filtering, (gatekeeping), and deceptiveness of the media is as plain as the water at the ocean, (or The Point, for us Western Pennsylvanians), and I genuinely don't understand how anyone can not see it. That doesn't just apply to Trump either. I've noticed it since 1982. It's the world's system being the world's system. They have absolute control of the information gateways and we see only what they show us.

That's why I suggested we look at news articles you believe are "attacking" Mr. Trump. Because to me, it's the exact opposite. The corruption and deception of the Trump administration are as plain to me as the sun shining in the sky, and I genuinely don't understand how anyone can not see it. I'm not suggesting the media is perfect, but I do suspect that you and I would likely have very different opinions of what constitutes an "attack".

And that brings me back to my OP. I truly believe that by excusing and endorsing Mr. Trump, Christians are willingly destroying their witness. For me, the double standard is astoundingly obvious. The precedents that Mr. Trump is setting in office by obstructing any and all oversight should be concerning to everyone. Eventually, the political power will swing, as it always does, and it will be pretty difficult for Christians to suddenly call for checks and balances when they've allowed and even cheered Mr. Trump's unilateral approach to government. It's hard for me to believe that if Mr. Obama did some of the same things that Mr. Trump does that these same people would just sit quietly and say nothing about it.

Christians suddenly don't care that Mr. Trump has no moral character, no integrity, no values. After screaming for years about how important it is to have a leader with character, now it's like, eh, not so important. And the world sees that.

It seems to me that Christianity and politics have never been about character and integrity despite that being the battle cry for so long. It's always been about voting for the guy that will keep them in power, at any cost. The facade that Christianity cares about the moral fiber of its leaders has been completely destroyed by the Trump administration.

Lindsey Graham tweeted it best when he said on May 3, 2016, "If we nominate Trump, we will get destroyed.......and we will deserve it."

O0
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

Bryan

I feel the 2 party system that is in place right now in America is a big reason for such issues.  I truly do.  It leads to the conclusion of "If I don't vote, or if I don't vote for this candidate it's a vote for the other."  Specifically, because only a Republican or Democrat stands a chance at ever winning under the current format.

Even Theodore Roosevelt who is on Mount Rushmore lost a Presidential election under a third party ticket.  Now having multiple political parties vying for power can be just as bad, it always extremist groups to gain positions of power, etc, but I do feel the two-party system is lacking.

For instance, take Pete's discussion point.  President Trump lacks character and integrity.  If we decide we aren't voting for him because of these traits, who then should we vote for?  In the last election, Hillary Clinton was hardly the shining beacon of morality.  In the coming election, we will have to decide between Trump again or Bernie Sanders (a man that speaks well, but whose policies are almost certain to lead to financial chaos) or Joe Biden who is currently under Senate Investigation himself.  Not voting for anyone is probably the best play in that case.

Myself?  I will vote for the candidate that best represents my expectations.  Trump isn't perfect.  The man has his flaws.  But from my purview, he has done pretty well for the country and the people as a whole.  He is on the side of life, an issue that I cannot compromise on.  As such, I could never vote for a Democrat or a politician that openly supports abortion.  That is my take a stand issue.  Since he has voiced his disagreement with it and lack of support for it, then he has my vote.
All glory to him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by shedding his blood for us.  He has made us a Kingdom of priests for God his Father. All glory and power to him forever and ever! Amen.

Pete

I honestly don't know who I'm going to vote for, but in my opinion, abortion shouldn't even be a politicized issue.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and views, but I personally don't think it's wise to vote solely on one issue. For some, it's homosexual marriage. For many, it's abortion. For many others, it's the economy (stupid).

The problem with that is that once a candidate knows the hot button issue, they can exploit it for their own personal and political gain. Mr. Trump knows that his comments on abortion will mobilize a large section of the voting base. So naturally, he "supports" repealing Roe v. Wade, despite having a history of saying he was pro-choice in every way, at least until it was no longer politically expedient to hold that viewpoint.

And this is why I hate politics. From my perspective, NO ONE in politics has any character or integrity. They just pander to whatever they think people want to hear without any real conviction. And I guess what bothers me is that I character and integrity is my take a stand issue. While suddenly it has become irrelevant to much of evangelical Christianity, it is of the utmost importance to me.

Please don't think this means I'm suggesting any other candidate has any integrity or character. But I think in large part, evangelical Christianity has sent the message loud and clear to Washington that as long as you say you're against abortion, we really don't care about anything else.

It would be another interesting discussion to talk about why abortion is such a hot button issue in the first place. I personally believe that abortion should be a medical issue, not a political one. Maybe I'll start another discussion on that topic. 

O0
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

flaglady

Quote from: Pete on March 09, 2020, 08:23:52 amNO ONE in politics has any character or integrity
You know, I've been feeling more and more like that of late!

Quote from: Pete on March 09, 2020, 08:23:52 amIt would be another interesting discussion to talk about why abortion is such a hot button issue in the first place.
I had an issue with this when it was first legalised in the UK. We were told that staff could opt out of the procedure if they had an objection on grounds of faith, like they were Catholic or something. I had no idea that almost all my staff were Catholic! So it was left that I, being the boss, had to attended to all these cases while my staff sat in the rest room drinking coffee!

Balance

Quote from: Pete on March 04, 2020, 08:07:10 pmIt's not so much that I'm protesting anything as it is a personal choice for me. I cannot in good conscious call myself a Republican. I am a conservative-leaning independent. The Republican party is no longer representative of my beliefs and values, and it's not like the Republican party is going to select a different candidate.


I understand that the President is not a politician, he is bold, crass and at times demeaning. (just like a 71yr old billionaire business man).

But what beliefs in the Republican Party have changed?

They were Pro life before - still are
They were strong 2nd amendment before - still are
They were strong borders - still are.

What within the party has changed?
Ego is the opiate that dulls the pain of being obviously stupid.

Pete

Quote from: Balance on March 23, 2020, 02:00:13 pmI understand that the President is not a politician, he is bold, crass and at times demeaning. (just like a 71yr old billionaire business man).

But what beliefs in the Republican Party have changed?

They were Pro life before - still are
They were strong 2nd amendment before - still are
They were strong borders - still are.

What within the party has changed?
Hey Balance, long time no "see". It's good to hear from you again.

As to what has changed, your comment is a prime example of why I can no longer call myself a Republican. Your dismissal of Mr. Trump's lack of character and integrity as just being endemic of a 71-year-old billionaire businessman gets a collective "meh" from the Republican party, and I do not understand why.

Christians used to at least pretend as if they cared about the character and integrity of our leaders. All of that pretense is gone now. As your comment illustrates, as long as they can keep their guns, give lip service to the pro-life movement and keep out illegal aliens, that's all that really matters to many Republicans. It doesn't matter that Mr. Trump can't be trusted to tell the truth on the most mundane of topics. It doesn't matter that he's been found guilty of stealing money from his charities. It doesn't matter that he calls people names like a petulant child. It doesn't matter that he's paid hush money to porn stars (and lied about it).

The last few days I've watched the daily press briefings from the Coronavirus task force, and it has laid bare all of Mr. Trump's faults and inadequacies for the world to see. Dr. Anthony Fauci (who Mr. Trump flippantly refers to as "Tony" in these press briefings) often has to try to correct the misinformation Mr. Trump spews. Mr. Trump's narcissism is on display for the world to see. He cares only for himself and being portrayed as the hero who can do no wrong. Don't believe me? Listen to one of these press briefings and count how many times someone praises Mr. Trump. Particularly Mr. Pence, who is allegedly leading the Coronavirus task force. I'm convinced that his job in the press briefing is to lavish praise on just what a spectacular job the President is doing, regardless of what the facts and reality say.

But I digress from my rambling to say...  There are so many ways that the Republican party has fundamentally changed that I don't even know where to start. So when you ask that to me, I sit dumbfounded at how anyone cannot see the complete and total surrender of the Republican party to whatever dear leader's whims are at the moment.

This is all bad enough for me from a Republican perspective, but it is even worse from a Christian perspective. Character and integrity absolutely should matter to us as Christians, but it seems to me that Christians no longer value these traits in our leadership, and that concerns me. I truly believe that Christians are willfully surrendering their witness by continuing to excuse and endorse the bad behaviors of our President, and they are paving the way for our own greater persecution.

O0
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

flaglady

Quote from: Pete on March 05, 2020, 09:11:42 pmMr. Trump has said, and I quote, "Then I have an article two, where I have the right to do whatever I want as President".
W-w-w-w-what??? That is heinous! Outrageous! No president, prime minister or any other person in power should be able to do that. Not in a democratic society. Because then it becomes a dictatorship - does it not?


( BTW, I obviously missed this earlier. Tut tut - must  read posts more carefully in future!)

Pete

March 26, 2020, 10:49:51 am #36 Last Edit: March 26, 2020, 07:54:02 pm by Pete
Another data point that confuses the heck out of me in our current situation; Mr. Trump's approval rating regarding the Coronavirus is increasing. And I have no idea why?

By no objective measure is the United States doing a good job with the Coronavirus situation. We are on track to surpass Italy in the number of infections in the next 2-3 days (ETA: Seems I was a bit too conservative in my estimate. The US has officially surpassed Italy in the number of infections as of this afternoon.) and we are on pace to surpass China to have the largest number of infections in the world within a week unless our trendline changes fast (ETA: Well, I was wrong here also. We've already surpassed China and the US is now number one for infections in the world.) Yet Mr. Trump has claimed that we are "winning". Not sure what we're winning? Having the largest number of infections in the world is not a prize that I want to "win".

I honestly wonder if the people that think Mr. Trump is doing a good job have watched any of his daily press briefings. 10+ people stand on a platform nearly shoulder to shoulder in defiance of their own guidelines suggesting that there should be no groups of 10 or more and that you should stay 6 feet apart. The two doctors, that should be guiding and leading our response, stand there while Mr. Trump opines and bloviates about what a spectacular job he's doing. Then one by one, the rest of the people take their turn praising Mr. Trump. Mr. Pence in particular, who is ostensibly leading this "task force", gushes about what a great job is being done by the President. It's almost as if he's incapable of making a single statement without it including some form of "thanks to the President's great leadership/decisive action", "at the direction of the President", or some other sycophantic gushing. Then at the end of the briefing, poor Dr. Fauci has to get up and try to walk back much of what Mr. Trump just said.

Mr. Trump has said he'd like to open the country, or at least parts of the country, by Easter. So two days ago in one of these press briefings, a reporter asked the following question (from the White House transcript);

QuoteA question for you, Mr. President and Dr. Fauci, if we could.  This would -- looking at this idea of an Easter timeline -- and I know that's probably flexible -- what are the metrics by which you will make the decision as to whether you can say, "Yes, we can open up this area of the country" or "No, we can't open up that area."  I mean, will you be looking at disease numbers?  Will you be looking at possible containment, isolation?  What are you (inaudible)?

This is a good question. Essentially, how will we know that it's safe to open a given area of our country? And here is Mr. Trump's response;

QuoteI think we'll be looking at a lot of things.  We'll also be looking at very large portions of our country.  And I will be guided very much by Dr. Fauci and by Deborah and by some of the other professionals that work with both of you.

And we're going to see what -- what will be, but that would certainly be -- I think that's a goal that perhaps can happen, or at least for a very large portion of our country.


Now maybe it's just me, but that smacks of having no idea what he's talking about. The question was what metric will we use. The answer? "A lot of things". Insightful. But he thinks it's a goal that can happen. No explanation of why he thinks that or what metric makes him think it's possible, but he thinks it might happen. Just wait and see. We'll have to look at many things. And good things will happen. Just wait. You'll see great things happen, and I think a lot sooner than everyone thinks...

This isn't leadership which is what our country desperately needs right now. Yet his approval numbers keep going up. And I increasingly think that I must be living in a parallel, upside-down universe.

O0
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

flaglady

Quote from: Pete on March 26, 2020, 10:49:51 amWe are on track to surpass Italy in the number of infections in the next 2-3 days
NOT something to 'trump' about!

Quote from: Pete on March 26, 2020, 10:49:51 amMr. Trump has said he'd like to open the country, or at least parts of the country, by Easter
I have a friend in Kansas that I speak to on a fairly regular basis and last week she proudly stated that "We're alright. Apparently we'll be going back to normal in 2-4 weeks time!" I'm sure she must have heard my jaw hit the table but she fobbed me off when I said it would be more like 12 months! And that's the estimate in the UK.

Sad thing is, thinking of all the smaller businesses and shops that have probably been hanging on by the skin of their teeth for the past 2-4 years and will very likely never return. It will be a very different world when we all emerge from our seclusion.

Renee

During the last voting season I told Ken I have a bad feeling about Trump. For a bit there I started leaning towards supporting him because he was doing so much good. I've come to the point where that bad feeling has returned and is getting stronger. I've come to believe that all the "good" we're seeing is a smoke screen for something sinister going on behind the scenes, that he is pushing for.
THE DEFINITION OF REVIVAL

1. Falling in love with Jesus all over again

2. Having the Joy of your salvation restored

Pete

It's stuff like this that makes me scratch my head.

On Thursday, March 26, Mr. Trump called into Sean Hannity's show on Fox News. During that conversation, he said the following, which is a direct copy and paste from the transcript of that show (I'm bolding the parts that are relevant in this word salad;  (Also maybe you can answer this Jo, but don't hospitals have far more than ONE ventilator?)

QuoteMr. Trump: And you know, the good ones are very, very expensive. And you know, they'd say, like Governor Cuomo and others that say we want, you know, 30,000 of them, 30,000. All right. Think of this. You know, you go to hospitals, they'll have one in a hospital. And now, all of a sudden everybody's asking for these vast numbers. So -- but we have now companies stepping up and they're building them. They're doing the masks. We've already delivered millions and millions of masks. But remember, we're really a second line of attack. The first line of attack is supposed to be the hospitals and the local government and the states, the states themselves. I mean, we people like Governor Inslee. He should be doing more. He shouldn't be relying on the federal government. Governor Inslee, that's the state of Washington. He was a failed presidential candidate. And you know, he's always complaining. And your governor of Michigan, I mean, she's not stepping up. I don't know if she knows what's going on. But all she does is sit there and blame the Federal government. She doesn't get it done. And we send her a lot. Now she wants a declaration of emergency. And you know, we'll have to make a decision on that. But Michigan is a very important state. I love the people of Michigan what they do. I'm the one -- I'm bringing back many, many car factories into Michigan. And she is a new governor. And it's not been pleasant. And you know, you look around and you see what's going on. And by the way, most governors have been fantastic. I have to tell you. Most of them have been -- whether it's Democrat or Republican but we've had a trouble -- we've really had some trouble with the state of Washington. The governor, he's a -- and he ran for president, didn't exactly do well. He got zero. And we've had a big problem with the young, a woman governor from, you know who I'm talking about, from Michigan. So we can't, you know, we don't like to see the complaints. And I am getting along with Governor Cuomo. I think that a lot of things are being said that are more. I don't think that certain things will materialize. And you know a lot -- a lot of equipment's being asked for that I don't think they'll need but I'm building.

Then yesterday, Sunday, March 29, Yamiche Alcindor from PBS NewsHour started to ask this question, before being cut off by Mr. Trump;

QuoteYamiche Alcindor: Thank you, Mr. President. I have two questions. The first is you've said repeatedly that you think that some of the equipment that governors are requesting they don't actually need. You said New York might not need 30,000-

As you can see from the Transcript from Hannity above, that's exactly what Mr. Trump said just 3 days earlier. So his response to her?

QuoteMr. Trump: I didn't say that.

Um, yes he did. Less than 72 hours before he was asked this question. So then this played out;

QuoteYamiche Alcindor:
You said it on Sean Hannity's Fox News. You said that you might-

Donald Trump:
Why don't you people act, let me ask you-

Yamiche Alcindor:
You said some states-

Donald Trump:
Why don't you act in a little more positive? It's always trying to get you-

Yamiche Alcindor:
My question to you is-

Donald Trump:
Get you, get you, and you know what? That's why nobody trusts the media anymore.

Yamiche Alcindor:
My question to you is how is that going to impact-

Donald Trump:
That's why people...

Excuse me, you didn't hear me, that's why you used to work for The Times and now you work for somebody else. Look, let me tell you something, be nice. Don't be-

Yamiche Alcindor:
Mr. President, my question is ...

Donald Trump:
... don't be threatening, be nice. Go ahead.

Yamiche Alcindor:
My question is, how is that going to impact how you fill these orders for ventilators, or for mass? Your views that-

Donald Trump:
It's not going to impact.

Yamiche Alcindor:
It's not going to impact you at all?

Donald Trump:
We're producing tremendous numbers of ventilators, we're doing a great job on it, Mike Pence, our vice president, just headed up the task force, which has been incredible the job they've done, we have everybody in the White House working on it, everybody in the country is working on this in one way or the other, the fact is we've done a great job of delivering. You've seen the biggest people in the business. I mean, there's nobody even close to this group of people, we had a meeting at three o'clock, it lasted for a long time, it was a great meeting with the generals, and with everybody else, and they have done a fantastic job. I'm just saying this, if they're holding ... Let me give you one example, we sent thousands of generators to New York, they were put into a warehouse, a New York warehouse, that happened to be located, interestingly, in Edison, New Jersey, they were given to New York, and we then went to other places also giving thousands of ventilators. The people in New York never distributed the generators. We said, "Why didn't you distribute them?" Now, you have to understand, they have New York people working in those warehouses, they knew they had them, so we said, "Why didn't you distribute them?" I hope they've distributed them now, but maybe they didn't need them so badly, but just so you know, we're all, you, me, everybody, we're all on the same team. When journalists get up, and you're a journalist, a fine journalist, when journalists get up-

Yamiche Alcindor:
I was quoting you directly from Sean Hannity.

Donald Trump:
... and ask questions that are so threatening, we're all on the same team.

Yamiche Alcindor:
I was quoting you directly from your interview with Sean Hannity.

Donald Trump:
Take a look at my interview, what I want to do is if there is something wrong, we have to get to the bottom of it. When I hear facemasks go from 10,000 to 300,000 and they constantly need more, and the biggest man in the business is shocked, he knows all about the virus by the way, he's not surprised by that, he knows all about it, he shouldn't be surprised, he should say, "Well, they're standard because this is really a very tough disease. This is really a very tough virus to handle." Okay, please go ahead-


So a reporter asks a perfectly valid question, Mr. Trump denies he even said what he clearly said, and then lashes out at her by saying she should be "nice" and stop "threatening" him. 

Like, what? And did you also notice that despite Mr. Trump being very disrespectful and personally attacking the reporter, she did not respond in kind? 

Yet there are still people out there who think the media is trying to get Mr. Trump. I suppose if by "get" you mean hold him accountable for the things he says, then yeah, they're trying to "get" him.

O0
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."