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Predestination vs free will, a compromise maybe?

Started by Bryan, November 03, 2019, 08:03:20 am

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Bryan

So I'm sure this thread will get shredded on the other site, but I would like to ask you folks here as well.  I really struggle with this idea that God predestines every single person for salvation and just excludes multitudes for whatever reason. Sure you can say it's his will or whatever, but that is totally against the nature of love and grace.

So I was thinking about this and am curious what kind of responses I would get, should be fun!

Is it possible that God does indeed predestine some people, but not others? Like Jeremiah for instance who was told before he was born God knew him. Or Paul, who wrote that God had set him apart from birth.

So in others words, it's a hybrid of the two positions of free will vs predestination. Where 99% of people who ever exist have the ability to choose faith or not, while there are a very select few who God has called and selected from before birth that will follow him.

To me that seems to be a very biblical position and not at all at odds with God's loving and graceful nature.
All glory to him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by shedding his blood for us.  He has made us a Kingdom of priests for God his Father. All glory and power to him forever and ever! Amen.

jiminpa

November 05, 2019, 01:47:20 pm #1 Last Edit: November 05, 2019, 02:00:13 pm by jiminpa
Great topic Bryan. I'm not in a good mind-frame right now, (dealing with single parent vs. teenager issues), so I'm hesitant to answer until I get my emotions and mind a little better oriented.

The more I am exposed to Calvinistic predestination, the more I doubt that John Calvin was a Christian. IMHO, pure predestination is just pagan fatalism in a wrapper that semi-Catholics could buy. Calvinism teaches that we can't accept salvation if God doesn't grant us to accept it, but that the God who tells us to choose life, and who inspired the scripture to say that He is not willing that any perish, won't grant the overwhelming majority of us that ability. That makes Him a bigger liar than Satan, and God is not a liar. For pure predestination to be true, God is unjust and the most inhumane butchers humanity has ever seen will be correct in accusing God of sending them to Hell for His sin, which is the opposite of what happened. We know that it was God Himself in a body of flesh who took the condemnation for our sin.

So, what of the scriptures that explicitly say that at least some are called? The only way I see to reconcile free will and God's choosing is that all are called, and God honors our choice to accept the call or not. I think we see that even after we are saved. I have struggled to follow the specifics of God's call on my life. Fatalism says that that must mean that God has not really given me any specific calling, but scripture says that I have a problem with following. That is the only viewpoint that I can see that agrees with the scripture overall.
I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.

Optimax

"Elect" NT:1588  eklektos (ek-lek-tos'); from NT:1586; select; by implication, favorite: KJV - chosen, elect.  Strong's

Elect, Chosen, Called, Predestinated, Foreknowledge

Different ideas on what "elect/chosen" means. The idea that God chose/elected those who would be saved.
Some think the person had nothing to do with it, had no say in it, it was God's decision. God chose/elected those who would be saved.
This is true. Truth also is in how he chose those who would be saved.

Matt 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen. KJV
Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen. KJV

Rom 16:13 Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine. KJV

Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. KJV

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; KJV

2 Thess 2:13-14
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV

13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. NIV

Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen. KJV

People are called when they hear the Gospel. 

Eph 1:4-5
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, KJV

4 Even before the world was made, God had already chosen us to be his through our union with Christ, so that we would be holy and without fault before him. Because of his love
5 God had already decided that through Jesus Christ he would make us his sons -- this was his pleasure and purpose. TEV

4 In Christ, he chose us before the world was made. He chose us in love to be his holy people--people who could stand before him without any fault.
5 And before the world was made, God decided to make us his own children through Jesus Christ. This was what God wanted, and it pleased him to do it. ETR

4 Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes.
5 God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure.  NLT

Matt 22:14
14 For many are called, but few are chosen. KJV

You were called when you heard the Gospel.  Many hear but do not receive Jesus. Those who receive Jesus are "in Him/Christ", therefore are the chosen/elect.

The chosen/elect are predestined to be sons. Sonship came by salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

His foreknowledge means He knew who would

jiminpa

Quote from: Optimax on November 09, 2019, 10:18:12 am"Elect" NT:1588  eklektos (ek-lek-tos'); from NT:1586; select; by implication, favorite: KJV - chosen, elect.  Strong's

Elect, Chosen, Called, Predestinated, Foreknowledge

Different ideas on what "elect/chosen" means. The idea that God chose/elected those who would be saved.
Some think the person had nothing to do with it, had no say in it, it was God's decision. God chose/elected those who would be saved.
This is true. Truth also is in how he chose those who would be saved.

Matt 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen. KJV
Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen. KJV

Rom 16:13 Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine. KJV

Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. KJV

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; KJV

2 Thess 2:13-14
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV

13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. NIV

Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen. KJV

People are called when they hear the Gospel. 

Eph 1:4-5
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, KJV

4 Even before the world was made, God had already chosen us to be his through our union with Christ, so that we would be holy and without fault before him. Because of his love
5 God had already decided that through Jesus Christ he would make us his sons -- this was his pleasure and purpose. TEV

4 In Christ, he chose us before the world was made. He chose us in love to be his holy people--people who could stand before him without any fault.
5 And before the world was made, God decided to make us his own children through Jesus Christ. This was what God wanted, and it pleased him to do it. ETR

4 Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes.
5 God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure.  NLT

Matt 22:14
14 For many are called, but few are chosen. KJV

You were called when you heard the Gospel.  Many hear but do not receive Jesus. Those who receive Jesus are "in Him/Christ", therefore are the chosen/elect.

The chosen/elect are predestined to be sons. Sonship came by salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

His foreknowledge means He knew who would

Good to see you posting Optimax. About the only thing I could add to that is what it says in Romans that all creation testifies to God, so that there is no excuse, extending that calling to all, not just those who have heard a human presentation. Yes, evangelism is still as important as ever, since that spoken message is much clearer, and harder to ignore.
I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.