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September 15, 2019, 05:50:45 am

Exclusivity in heaven?

Started by Bryan, February 12, 2019, 01:28:17 pm

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Bryan

So something I was thinking about the other day is probably something none of us know but thought I'd ask anyway.

I was thinking about my thread on here where I was describing and detailing my life and past, and the last one I read was about my childhood church, Grace Baptist, and how they would always teach/preach that their beliefs/doctrines alone were the truth, even compared to other Christian sects.

How likely is it that groups such as that will make it to heaven?

Now Im not doubting their sincerity or passion, but to receive redemption and salvation we must be Jesus right?

Walk in live, not hate.  Be redeemers, not destroyers.  Etc.

How is telling someone they are going to hell unless they conform such living?  Especially that one even declares a living faith in Jesus.

For example, cessationists are usually very guilty of this.  Also those who say you must read only the KJV.

Like I said, probably not something we know for certainty but thought itd be interesting to discuss.
All glory to him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by shedding his blood for us.  He has made us a Kingdom of priests for God his Father. All glory and power to him forever and ever! Amen.

jiminpa

That's a good question Bryan. Cessation teaching is active unbelief, and I am convinced that true Calvinism is another gospel and, actually, repackaged fatalism. But what's in the hearts? John MacArthur has gone so far as to hold an anti-Holy Spirit rally, and I believe that everyone who stood on his stage for that is beyond hope, and they are some of the top names, and money, in pop-christianity. I do think that there are those who are just that deceived, and will get to eternity as one passing through fire, but then I'm not so sure that the same thing doesn't apply to me. The problem is that even the sincere ones are still holding up unbelief as religious duty.

It's really starting to bother me again. How can we call ourselves followers of Jesus and then consider it our religious duty to denounce His ministry to the world, and the hurting in the church? The whole mindset is so invasive that those of us actually wanting to believe God are marginalized, and I find myself more mired in religious unbelief than faithfulness.
I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.

flaglady

Oh what a collection of differing ideas to be confronted with!

It's always bothered me to be disparaging about 'other faiths' when who am I to make such decisions? It bothered me on CF when there were certain faiths dispatched to a separate forum entitled "Non-Christian Faiths". After all, who are we to make such declarations? Isn't that the absolute essence of hubris?

I prefer to follow Jesus and I feel comfort and the love of the Father in doing so. I have heard God speak to me when I was still a lost soul but yes, He did speak to me and led me into the path of righteousness for His Name's sake. It's on this steady footpath that I feel my belief is The Way, The Truth and The Life.  Some may call this shaky ground but it doesn't feel like it to me. Even in times of deep depression and uncertainty, I can still feel the certainty of it and have confidence in the Power of His Love.

jiminpa

February 14, 2019, 10:40:15 am #3 Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 11:08:24 am by jiminpa
Yeah Jo, I wish I thought more like you. I just have a hard time seeing beyond the damage that some theologies are doing to the world and the body of Christ, but I also believe in unity, so I am very conflicted. If it is faith that pleases God, how can we fellowship with unbelief, but if we are to be in unity, how can we not?
I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.

Balance

Is Billy Graham in heaven?  He was a cessationist.
Ego is the opiate that dulls the pain of being obviously stupid.

Bryan

Quote from: Balance on February 21, 2019, 02:56:13 pmIs Billy Graham in heaven?  He was a cessationist.

Thats a good but ultimately pointless question.  Pointless because none of us know.  We can assume he is, because why wouldnt he be?  But none of us know, thats actually the point of my OP.

The NT warns of false doctrine, and wolves in sheeps clothing.  I know BG had quite a rep for his crusades and such, but what was the ultimate end?
All glory to him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by shedding his blood for us.  He has made us a Kingdom of priests for God his Father. All glory and power to him forever and ever! Amen.

jiminpa

I don't know that cessationism alone makes one ineligible. Rallying against the Holy Spirit, that, I think, makes one ineligible. If Billy Graham ever spoke blasphemies against God's Spirit I am unaware of it. Cessationism does make one a poor teacher, and in my opinion a poor Christian. Billy Graham wasn't a teacher. He was an evangelist. He did what he was called to do, but he limited himself by his doctrine.
I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.

flaglady

Call me ignorant but I had to Google "cessationist"!!

DavidMcClean

Quote from: jiminpa on February 13, 2019, 10:00:51 amThat's a good question Bryan. Cessation teaching is active unbelief, and I am convinced that true Calvinism is another gospel and, actually, repackaged fatalism. But what's in the hearts? John MacArthur has gone so far as to hold an anti-Holy Spirit rally, and I believe that everyone who stood on his stage for that is beyond hope, and they are some of the top names, and money, in pop-christianity. I do think that there are those who are just that deceived, and will get to eternity as one passing through fire, but then I'm not so sure that the same thing doesn't apply to me. The problem is that even the sincere ones are still holding up unbelief as religious duty.

It's really starting to bother me again. How can we call ourselves followers of Jesus and then consider it our religious duty to denounce His ministry to the world, and the hurting in the church? The whole mindset is so invasive that those of us actually wanting to believe God are marginalized, and I find myself more mired in religious unbelief than faithfulness.

If I was in your place I'd be greatly concerned. You're pronouncing judgement on tens of thousands of people, maybe millions that believe and are convinced that Calvinism is true that they are all wrong. Seriously are you SO arrogant that you are convinced that YOU are correct? What an amazing place you must be in that you can judge the hearts of so many sincere people. Here's another perspective - absolute bloody arrogance on your part.

Have you ANY IDEA of how arrogant you seem to others looking from the outside in? Showed my wife your posts and she was appalled.....get real and get your self esteem from somewhere else apart from God like pronouncements.....
Just who are YOU or anyone else....a mere ant....to presume to know so much about so much of the human race. What a pinnacle of spiritual reality you must have achieved. I'm surprised that like Jesse Duplantis God's not asking you for advice.

Seriously stop patting yourself on the back, and judging the planet and look to yourself will you. If you even bother to believe the scripture that "Judge not lest ye be judged, for whatever measure you use to judge it will be measured back to you" then you are in for a dreadful time....

Do you pull people down because they deserve it or because it makes you feel better? Seriously I'd love to know. Get off your high horse and stop with the God like pronouncements will you? By the way - the fact that a few people here are slapping you on the back for your "Godly Wisdom" counts for nothing or don't you realise that?

jiminpa

Quote from: DavidMcClean on March 08, 2019, 09:56:34 pmIf I was in your place I'd be greatly concerned. You're pronouncing judgement on tens of thousands of people, maybe millions that believe and are convinced that Calvinism is true that they are all wrong. Seriously are you SO arrogant that you are convinced that YOU are correct? What an amazing place you must be in that you can judge the hearts of so many sincere people. Here's another perspective - absolute bloody arrogance on your part.

Have you ANY IDEA of how arrogant you seem to others looking from the outside in? Showed my wife your posts and she was appalled.....get real and get your self esteem from somewhere else apart from God like pronouncements.....
Just who are YOU or anyone else....a mere ant....to presume to know so much about so much of the human race. What a pinnacle of spiritual reality you must have achieved. I'm surprised that like Jesse Duplantis God's not asking you for advice.

Seriously stop patting yourself on the back, and judging the planet and look to yourself will you. If you even bother to believe the scripture that "Judge not lest ye be judged, for whatever measure you use to judge it will be measured back to you" then you are in for a dreadful time....

Do you pull people down because they deserve it or because it makes you feel better? Seriously I'd love to know. Get off your high horse and stop with the God like pronouncements will you? By the way - the fact that a few people here are slapping you on the back for your "Godly Wisdom" counts for nothing or don't you realise that?
Yes, what I say on this forum is my own opinion, and only worth whatever little bit my opinion is worth. You have pretty well established that it isn't much. I'm fine with that. Who am I? Pretty much nobody.
I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.

Bryan

All our opinions are just as valid as the next person.  It's a fair question to ask.  I'd like to see what David's opinion of the subject is rather than what his opinions of our opinions are.
All glory to him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by shedding his blood for us.  He has made us a Kingdom of priests for God his Father. All glory and power to him forever and ever! Amen.

Bryan

Getting back to what this was supposed to be about.  Jesus warned the Pharisees, or rather condemned them and those like them, for shutting the door to heaven on those who would seek to enter.  What was the Pharisees crime that was worthy of rebuke from the Savior?  Preaching that unless others were like them, believed like them, acted like them, etc, they would not be worthy of entering eternal glory.

This is the heart of my discussion.  Some times talking about stuff like this things can get easily misunderstood and even twisted.  My aim was to ask about groups that actively preach, unless you believe like us you are condemned.  Thus why I brought up my childhood Baptist Church.

Now I don't believe that all who attend such would fall into the category of lost.  But I wouldn't hesitate to say some definitely are.  Probably the more "experienced" in such groups, and that group is not just limited to Baptists.  I've met Charismatics that are like this.  Every sect of Christianity has it's extreme elements that are probably beyond actual redemption, just wolves in sheep's clothing.

So while they preach a good game, their actions say something else entirely.

Example, I have actually heard a minister tell someone in a counselling session, someone who was having a particularly rough time, that unless they settled down and starting behaving and acting a certain way, they wouldn't engage them.  The exact exchange had some choice words included and that was actually the center of the "rebuke".  Stop using such language or I won't help.  That is utterly ridiculous.  I can't imagine Jesus or any of his inner circle refusing to engage someone just because their language was a bit extreme.

That type of thing.  Christianity has a bad rep mainly due to groups like that.  I have known many very genuine and loving, rather Christ-like figures that have come from Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostal circles and their particular doctrines never once hindered them from accepting others as Christ.
All glory to him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by shedding his blood for us.  He has made us a Kingdom of priests for God his Father. All glory and power to him forever and ever! Amen.

flaglady

I agree 100%, Bryan. Well said!

jiminpa

Quote from: Bryan on March 10, 2019, 01:38:22 pmGetting back to what this was supposed to be about.  Jesus warned the Pharisees, or rather condemned them and those like them, for shutting the door to heaven on those who would seek to enter.  What was the Pharisees crime that was worthy of rebuke from the Savior?  Preaching that unless others were like them, believed like them, acted like them, etc, they would not be worthy of entering eternal glory.

This is the heart of my discussion.  Some times talking about stuff like this things can get easily misunderstood and even twisted.  My aim was to ask about groups that actively preach, unless you believe like us you are condemned.  Thus why I brought up my childhood Baptist Church.

Now I don't believe that all who attend such would fall into the category of lost.  But I wouldn't hesitate to say some definitely are.  Probably the more "experienced" in such groups, and that group is not just limited to Baptists.  I've met Charismatics that are like this.  Every sect of Christianity has it's extreme elements that are probably beyond actual redemption, just wolves in sheep's clothing.

So while they preach a good game, their actions say something else entirely.

Example, I have actually heard a minister tell someone in a counselling session, someone who was having a particularly rough time, that unless they settled down and starting behaving and acting a certain way, they wouldn't engage them.  The exact exchange had some choice words included and that was actually the center of the "rebuke".  Stop using such language or I won't help.  That is utterly ridiculous.  I can't imagine Jesus or any of his inner circle refusing to engage someone just because their language was a bit extreme.

That type of thing.  Christianity has a bad rep mainly due to groups like that.  I have known many very genuine and loving, rather Christ-like figures that have come from Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostal circles and their particular doctrines never once hindered them from accepting others as Christ.
In my passion for "continuation," and my issue with the wolves demanding unbelief in order to be a "doctrinally sound" Christian, I do not discount that  there are those who just don't know any better, or even some of those who do who could very well be saved. It's the ones who profit in some way by blatantly opposing the Holy Spirit, and in so doing are weakening the church and our ability to minister to the lost and each other whose salvation I question. The ones who have explicitly spoken against God's Spirit, are by Jesus's declaration, disqualified. I don't find joy in that, but I do recognize the implications of Jesus's teaching.
I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.

flaglady


Hisgirl

To Balance:  Actually, Billy Graham wasn't a Cessationist, as many believe.

He wrote a book called The Holy Spirit.

Here are just a few quotes from him and the accompanying page numbers:

From Billy Graham's own words: 
Page 215 - To summarize...there is no doubt in my mind there is a gift of healing.  There needs to be caution and discernment, though, because there are frauds and charlatans.

Page 217 - And today when the gospel is proclaimed on the frontiers of the Christian faith that approximate the first century situation, miracles still sometimes accompany the advance of the gospel.  As indicated by both prophets Hosea and Joel, as we approach the end of the age we may expect miracles to increase.

Page 218 - ...as we approach the end of the age, I believe we will see a dramatic recurrence of signs and wonders which will demonstrate the power of God to a skeptical world.  Just as the powers of satan are being unleashed with greater intensity, so I believe God will allow signs and wonders to be performed.

Page 234 - Indeed, tongues is a gift of the Spirit.  When those who speak in tongues misuse it so that it becomes divisive, it indicates a lack of love.  And those who forbid it do the church a disservice because they appear to contradict the teaching of the apostle Paul.

Page 235 - The sign gifts - healings, miracles and tongues probably attracted as much attention in 1st century.  They also caused confusion and abuses as today.  Nevertheless, God the Holy Spirit gave them to some within church to be used for His glory.  They must never be exploited for selfish reasons nor must they ever become sources of either division or pride.  They should be used strictly in accordance with principles God set forth in the Bible.  If God chooses to give these gifts to some today, pray they will be used for the common good and furtherance of the Kingdom

"It's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it."  My Mama

Bryan

Quote from: Hisgirl on March 17, 2019, 09:54:06 amTo Balance:  Actually, Billy Graham wasn't a Cessationist, as many believe.

He wrote a book called The Holy Spirit.

Here are just a few quotes from him and the accompanying page numbers:

From Billy Graham's own words:
Page 215 - To summarize...there is no doubt in my mind there is a gift of healing.  There needs to be caution and discernment, though, because there are frauds and charlatans.

Page 217 - And today when the gospel is proclaimed on the frontiers of the Christian faith that approximate the first century situation, miracles still sometimes accompany the advance of the gospel.  As indicated by both prophets Hosea and Joel, as we approach the end of the age we may expect miracles to increase.

Page 218 - ...as we approach the end of the age, I believe we will see a dramatic recurrence of signs and wonders which will demonstrate the power of God to a skeptical world.  Just as the powers of satan are being unleashed with greater intensity, so I believe God will allow signs and wonders to be performed.

Page 234 - Indeed, tongues is a gift of the Spirit.  When those who speak in tongues misuse it so that it becomes divisive, it indicates a lack of love.  And those who forbid it do the church a disservice because they appear to contradict the teaching of the apostle Paul.

Page 235 - The sign gifts - healings, miracles and tongues probably attracted as much attention in 1st century.  They also caused confusion and abuses as today.  Nevertheless, God the Holy Spirit gave them to some within church to be used for His glory.  They must never be exploited for selfish reasons nor must they ever become sources of either division or pride.  They should be used strictly in accordance with principles God set forth in the Bible.  If God chooses to give these gifts to some today, pray they will be used for the common good and furtherance of the Kingdom



Interesting indeed
All glory to him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by shedding his blood for us.  He has made us a Kingdom of priests for God his Father. All glory and power to him forever and ever! Amen.