• Welcome, Guest. Please login.
October 23, 2019, 07:06:14 pm

Limitless grace?

Started by Bryan, December 19, 2017, 12:11:51 pm

Previous topic - Next topic

Bryan

So allow me to start off with a bit of a controversial topic.  :)

Is the grace God offers truly limitless?  Or has he set bounds on it for those who choose to abuse it?

What I mean is there are seemingly, again seemingly, scriptures that point to an end to grace for those who once belonging in God's fold walking away and not being able to return again.  Hebrews is full of such statements and remarks.  So can a person who once walked with the Spirit by choice of matter or design walk out of God's grace and then be excluded from returning again?  How would such a person know that they have been "expelled" from God's grace?  What signs would there be?

I heard Mike Bickle once teach that such a person would be very angry/hostile to the gospel, even if not at face value, IOW rather subtly hostile to it.  etc.
All glory to him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by shedding his blood for us.  He has made us a Kingdom of priests for God his Father. All glory and power to him forever and ever! Amen.

jiminpa

Again, another intriguing topic. I love it! Let me start by saying that I hate the calvinist redefinition of "grace." It's not Biblical from what I see. The Bible says, (2Cor. 9:8) that grace abounding yields abundant good works.

The passages in Hebrews about falling away describe someone who has walked with God, and is quite aware of what he is walking away from. His is not just struggling with sin, emotions or failures; this is telling God to take a hike, and fully understanding the implications. What would it take for such a person to turn again to the light? I think the Bible says that's impossible. God does not force His mercy, (which is what I think we are really discussing here),  on us.
I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.

Optimax

Notice the qualifications required for a person to "fall away".

Heb 6:4-5
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,KJV

Many are qualified with the first four.

Very, very few have tasted of the powers of the world to come.

What are those powers? We might make a guess or two. However the only ones who know those powers are the ones who have tasted (experienced) them.

flaglady

Being still in the middle of watching a TV mini series called "King David" this is curiously pertinent for me. Last night's episode ended with the death of King Saul who had done almost everything imaginable to defy the Lord who had anointed him King of Israel. This was obviously a fictionalised account but the producer is known to be a Godly man and did his best to be true to Biblical facts.

What I'm getting at is how this man, who once walked with God was able to defy each and every requirement the Lord had laid down for His people and even defied the anointing of David as the next king. Having watched that and then reread Samuel I and II, I was astounded at how he could have turned against God as he did. There was a man who indubitably exceeded the limit of God's grace. A scary story.

jiminpa

Quote from: flaglady on December 20, 2017, 07:23:56 pm
Being still in the middle of watching a TV mini series called "King David" this is curiously pertinent for me. Last night's episode ended with the death of King Saul who had done almost everything imaginable to defy the Lord who had anointed him King of Israel. This was obviously a fictionalised account but the producer is known to be a Godly man and did his best to be true to Biblical facts.

What I'm getting at is how this man, who once walked with God was able to defy each and every requirement the Lord had laid down for His people and even defied the anointing of David as the next king. Having watched that and then reread Samuel I and II, I was astounded at how he could have turned against God as he did. There was a man who indubitably exceeded the limit of God's grace. A scary story.

...and yet God continued to call him to repent until his heart was beyond hearing the call. I'm certain that God is like that with us all.
I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.

jiminpa

Quote from: Optimax on December 20, 2017, 10:33:07 am
Notice the qualifications required for a person to "fall away".

Heb 6:4-5
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,KJV

Many are qualified with the first four.

Very, very few have tasted of the powers of the world to come.

What are those powers? We might make a guess or two. However the only ones who know those powers are the ones who have tasted (experienced) them.
But I think that healing, and God moving outside of the laws of nature are the powers of the world to come, and visions, and prophecy, and sometimes even the "small" interventions in our lives. Anyone baptized in the Spirit should have tasted of those things, IMHO.
I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.

Bryan

i certainly think anyone who has moved in the work of the Holy Spirit can claim the last of the five stipulations, but does it then hold that such a person can leave Gods care never to return?  whether by their own choosing or Gods?  I guess what Im trying to ask is can a person so infuriate Yahweh that he abandons them even if they had been in his grace, or once he bestows his favor do they remain capable of receiving it for their lifetime?
All glory to him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by shedding his blood for us.  He has made us a Kingdom of priests for God his Father. All glory and power to him forever and ever! Amen.

flaglady


Quote from: Bryaneven if they had been in his grace, or once he bestows his favor do they remain capable of receiving it for their lifetime?

What about the thief on the cross? Jesus forgave him

Optimax

Quote from: jiminpa on December 20, 2017, 08:02:20 pm
But I think that healing, and God moving outside of the laws of nature are the powers of the world to come, and visions, and prophecy, and sometimes even the "small" interventions in our lives. Anyone baptized in the Spirit should have tasted of those things, IMHO.


Consider that all those things.  Healing, and God moving outside of the laws of nature, visions, and prophecy, and sometimes even the "small" interventions in our lives. All these things happened in OT times.

Perhaps a glimpse into the powers of the world to come would be Phillip, after witnessing to and getting the Eunuch saved was translated.

Acts 8:39-40
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
KJV

jiminpa

I don't see where something happening in the Old Testament precludes it from being the powers of the world to come.
I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.

Bryan

Quote from: flaglady on December 21, 2017, 02:10:21 pm
What about the thief on the cross? Jesus forgave him


But was he ever "in God's grace" before that moment?  That is what I am asking.  I would say no he wasn't because grace came through the cross which would have been impossible before Jesus died.
All glory to him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by shedding his blood for us.  He has made us a Kingdom of priests for God his Father. All glory and power to him forever and ever! Amen.

flaglady


jiminpa

Quote from: Bryan on December 26, 2017, 11:49:22 am
But was he ever "in God's grace" before that moment?  That is what I am asking.  I would say no he wasn't because grace came through the cross which would have been impossible before Jesus died.
While grace came through the cross, God was always going to sacrifice Himself for us, and saw it from the beginning. God has always loved us, and wanted all saved. God has always given grace to the humble, read Kings, Chronicles and Psalms if you don't think so. Those of God's who died 5 minutes before Jesus and those of His who died 6,000 years ago are just as saved as we are.
I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.