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November 17, 2019, 08:30:16 pm

hi everyone

Started by Yitzchak, February 08, 2014, 08:18:52 am

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Yitzchak

Quote from: Foadle on February 09, 2014, 09:49:23 am
The funning thing is is that accusing you of flaming based on that (which I thought quite within context) is doing the very thing he's talking about.



  I noticed that irony.
To know him and to make him known

Yitzchak

    Clearly there was more going on than just my situation. It has a long history apparently.  I have known that the devil has gotten a foothold on Christian forums over the past few years , but not all the details. It makes sense that corruption exists with all the bashing of Christian ministries that goes on on a regular basis. I always wondered how the moderators could allow that to continue.
     
To know him and to make him known

Foadle

couldn't it be found through the IP address?

Pete


Quote from: Foadle on February 10, 2014, 09:16:09 pm
couldn't it be found through the IP address?


Most IP addresses are dynamic, meaning that they change from time to time. Besides that, you could use a proxy or IP spoofing software to very easily bypass an IP ban. IP bans are rarely effective, and they have the added downside of potentially blocking a perfectly innocent user from accessing the site if they are unfortunate enough to be assigned the blacklisted IP.

The easiest way to spot a sock is to watch their online "personality". Only the very best socks can hide their style of posting, choice of phrasing, consistent misspellings of the same words. Eventually, they'll give themselves away. The bottom line is, I just don't think the CF staff cares.

O0
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

jiminpa

Quote from: Pete on February 10, 2014, 09:30:32 pm
Most IP addresses are dynamic, meaning that they change from time to time. Besides that, you could use a proxy or IP spoofing software to very easily bypass an IP ban. IP bans are rarely effective, and they have the added downside of potentially blocking a perfectly innocent user from accessing the site if they are unfortunate enough to be assigned the blacklisted IP.

The easiest way to spot a sock is to watch their online "personality". Only the very best socks can hide their style of posting, choice of phrasing, consistent misspellings of the same words. Eventually, they'll give themselves away. The bottom line is, I just don't think the CF staff cares.

O0
I agree on all points. 
I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.

Foadle

I didn't realise that...which is why you work with computers and I do not.

Yitzchak

     One thing that would help the moderating is for it to be done much more quickly. I used to be a moderator on Christian forums and it would take days to get to a simple decision on an infraction. In the meantime , one infraction would set off a chain reaction of several infractions.
   Most infractions of the rules should be so obvious that it can be decided in less than five minutes. The next moderator who signs on should be able to handle it quickly. With the size of that board and the number of moderators , it should move along very quickly.
    Once in a while there is a complicated one , but the vast majority are pretty obvious one way or the other. They have made it so complex and yet cannot seem to get 50% of the incidents right. They tended to over analyze things too much. The rules should be clear and violations should be clear. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out if someone broke the rules.
   Just my opinion. One that got me in trouble because I shared it with the moderators after it took four days for them to respond to a simple report of obvious flaming. By four days , posters had either retaliated or had moved on or it had escalated into a royal mess.
    I used to manage a Domino's Pizza. When I first took over , it was chaos. The old manager had let things go downhill. But as  manager , I trained a whole bunch of people and one by one I Organized various issues as they came up. It took a huge amount of work. About six months of 90 hour weeks. But once it was running smoothly , it was very easy to run. Then it practically ran itself with a problem here and there once in a while.
   I makes me wonder why the message board over there after all these years is in such disorganization that it takes so long to respond to simple situations as though they had just opened the message board the week before and were still trying to get the bugs out. But this current situation that I experienced reveals a big part of the problem. All these other agendas and power kicks rather than just moderating the board makes it complicated , I suppose.
     
   

   
To know him and to make him known

Pete

You may remember that for a period of almost 2 years, I was a supervisor at CF, and for a short period of time when there was such a thing, I was the manager of the Spirit-Filled forum.

Like you said, I saw that things were in chaos, and I wanted to fix them. I identified three areas that I thought were contributing to the chaos;

- Speed of dealing with reports
- Staff transparency
- Mutual respect between the staff and membership

To reiterate what you said, there have been times where I have been either "counseled" or "warned" more than 2 weeks (!) after I said something. I've had to go back and refresh my memory as to what the heck they were even talking about in their "counseling".

To address this, I proposed that moderators be permitted to act alone in almost all cases. "But what if a moderator gets out of control and starts running amok with this newfound power you've given them?" Then you address that moderator, up to and including removal from staff if necessary, and find someone who doesn't go on a power trip just because they're a moderator on a forum.

If you need 14 people to come to a consensus and a supervisor to approve it and God Himself to notarize the decision (I exaggerate a little, but not much), then you don't need moderators. You need people that you can trust to act within the guidelines and parameters that you set. If you need a staff consensus to act on something like "I think that poster is a stupid moron" (and you did), then your system is broken and it needs fixed.

Concerning staff transparency; the staff confidentiality agreement that one must abide by to be on staff at CF is draconian in nature and ridiculousy and unnecessarily clandestine. You could probably find out more about the inner-workings of the gestapo than you could about what is happening in the upper echelon of the CF staff quarters. There is a marked difference between privacy and secrecy. There are legitimate reasons for some things to be kept private. There is absolutely no reason to operate a Christian forum in secrecy.

My solution to this was to create an "Ask the forum manager" thread, where I pushed the limits of what the staff confidentiality agreement would permit me to share. Questions that I felt members were asking in earnest were answered frankly and honestly. It also gave me an opportunity to get to know the members of the forum better. I listened to their complaints. But more than that, I responded to them, and not with the canned "We're aware of that and working on it" response that only helped the culture of secrecy to thrive. I tried to break down the wall between the staff and the general members.  Needless to say, there were those on staff that didn't like this, and it didn't last long.

And lastly, mutual respect between staff and members. I had noted that I had been "counseled" by staff members that I didn't even know. I'd see that a had a PM from *someone* and I'd go... "Who?" Screen names I'd never seen before were "counseling" me. So I suggested that we have active members in the forum become moderators, people who were established, that we all knew, that wouldn't be complete strangers to those they were moderating.

I also suggested that the staff be allowed to tell the members who reported posts the outcome of those reports. As you well know, after you report something, you never hear anything again. You don't know what, if anything, was done about it. This led members to believe that nothing was being done with their reports, and it only upset them further when you'd pull the old "staff confidentiality" card when they would ask about it. I am of the belief that we're all adults, and if you're going to invest the time and energy into a forum, then you should be treated like an adult, spoken to as an adult, and not shooed away like a child for asking a simple question.

But alas, I was only a lowly forum manager, and there were many (many) tiers of staff above me who were quite happy to sit in the veiled secrecy of their ivory tower and enjoy the power that they wielded with impunity while gleefully looking down on the peons that they lorded it over.

That is why I quit staff. It's also why I started HGO. Jo can attest to the fact that her and I had many (many) conversations while we were both on staff about what I would do differently if I was in charge. Well, now I am in charge ;), but I don't let it go to my head. I allow people to speak freely, so long as they remain respectful of others. I don't censor opposing or unpopular viewpoints, and I don't try to whip everyone into shape so that they word everything exactly the way I think they should. I allow people to challenge me, quite publicly, and address their concerns to the best of my ability. I do have a "Private" area on this forum which I disclosed years ago, but it's used for things that deserve privacy. I do not operate any facet of HGO in secrecy, and I try to be as transparent as possible so that everyone knows what is going on.

This has created an atmosphere of respect and honor at HGO, and one that I'm quite proud of. Only a handful of times has it been necessary for me to exercise some kind of administrative "power", and situations have always been dealt with swiftly and succinctly.

I'm not perfect, but Love, respect and honor are the principles that HGO is built upon. God willing, we will continue to grow and spread that culture to others as they come.

O0


"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

Yitzchak

Quote from: Pete on February 11, 2014, 09:47:15 am
You may remember that for a period of almost 2 years, I was a supervisor at CF, and for a short period of time when there was such a thing, I was the manager of the Spirit-Filled forum.

Like you said, I saw that things were in chaos, and I wanted to fix them. I identified three areas that I thought were contributing to the chaos;

- Speed of dealing with reports
- Staff transparency
- Mutual respect between the staff and membership

To reiterate what you said, there have been times where I have been either "counseled" or "warned" more than 2 weeks (!) after I said something. I've had to go back and refresh my memory as to what the heck they were even talking about in their "counseling".

To address this, I proposed that moderators be permitted to act alone in almost all cases. "But what if a moderator gets out of control and starts running amok with this newfound power you've given them?" Then you address that moderator, up to and including removal from staff if necessary, and find someone who doesn't go on a power trip just because they're a moderator on a forum.

If you need 14 people to come to a consensus and a supervisor to approve it and God Himself to notarize the decision (I exaggerate a little, but not much), then you don't need moderators. You need people that you can trust to act within the guidelines and parameters that you set. If you need a staff consensus to act on something like "I think that poster is a stupid moron" (and you did), then your system is broken and it needs fixed.

Concerning staff transparency; the staff confidentiality agreement that one must abide by to be on staff at CF is draconian in nature and ridiculousy and unnecessarily clandestine. You could probably find out more about the inner-workings of the gestapo than you could about what is happening in the upper echelon of the CF staff quarters. There is a marked difference between privacy and secrecy. There are legitimate reasons for some things to be kept private. There is absolutely no reason to operate a Christian forum in secrecy.

My solution to this was to create an "Ask the forum manager" thread, where I pushed the limits of what the staff confidentiality agreement would permit me to share. Questions that I felt members were asking in earnest were answered frankly and honestly. It also gave me an opportunity to get to know the members of the forum better. I listened to their complaints. But more than that, I responded to them, and not with the canned "We're aware of that and working on it" response that only helped the culture of secrecy to thrive. I tried to break down the wall between the staff and the general members.  Needless to say, there were those on staff that didn't like this, and it didn't last long.

And lastly, mutual respect between staff and members. I had noted that I had been "counseled" by staff members that I didn't even know. I'd see that a had a PM from *someone* and I'd go... "Who?" Screen names I'd never seen before were "counseling" me. So I suggested that we have active members in the forum become moderators, people who were established, that we all knew, that wouldn't be complete strangers to those they were moderating.

I also suggested that the staff be allowed to tell the members who reported posts the outcome of those reports. As you well know, after you report something, you never hear anything again. You don't know what, if anything, was done about it. This led members to believe that nothing was being done with their reports, and it only upset them further when you'd pull the old "staff confidentiality" card when they would ask about it. I am of the belief that we're all adults, and if you're going to invest the time and energy into a forum, then you should be treated like an adult, spoken to as an adult, and not shooed away like a child for asking a simple question.

But alas, I was only a lowly forum manager, and there were many (many) tiers of staff above me who were quite happy to sit in the veiled secrecy of their ivory tower and enjoy the power that they wielded with impunity while gleefully looking down on the peons that they lorded it over.

That is why I quit staff. It's also why I started HGO. Jo can attest to the fact that her and I had many (many) conversations while we were both on staff about what I would do differently if I was in charge. Well, now I am in charge ;), but I don't let it go to my head. I allow people to speak freely, so long as they remain respectful of others. I don't censor opposing or unpopular viewpoints, and I don't try to whip everyone into shape so that they word everything exactly the way I think they should. I allow people to challenge me, quite publicly, and address their concerns to the best of my ability. I do have a "Private" area on this forum which I disclosed years ago, but it's used for things that deserve privacy. I do not operate any facet of HGO in secrecy, and I try to be as transparent as possible so that everyone knows what is going on.

This has created an atmosphere of respect and honor at HGO, and one that I'm quite proud of. Only a handful of times has it been necessary for me to exercise some kind of administrative "power", and situations have always been dealt with swiftly and succinctly.

I'm not perfect, but Love, respect and honor are the principles that HGO is built upon. God willing, we will continue to grow and spread that culture to others as they come.

O0



   Thank you Pete. This post that you made here is a good example of the transparency that you speak of.  Rather than a vague answer , you spoke directly. Maybe this will all work out for the good because I needed a little push to get me over here to a more healthy environment.
To know him and to make him known

Pete


Quote from: Yitzchak on February 11, 2014, 07:45:35 pm

   Thank you Pete. This post that you made here is a good example of the transparency that you speak of.  Rather than a vague answer , you spoke directly. Maybe this will all work out for the good because I needed a little push to get me over here to a more healthy environment.


I do hope that your being here will help spur some good discussion. I've been lurking at CF since I left, and there are many things I would have commented on, but there are too many games being played by people at CF, and I just don't have it in me to deal with those people anymore.

Hopefully, we can get some good discussions going here, and we can help one another grow in our relationship with God and with each other.

O0
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

Yitzchak

Quote from: Pete on February 11, 2014, 07:50:03 pm
I do hope that your being here will help spur some good discussion. I've been lurking at CF since I left, and there are many things I would have commented on, but there are too many games being played by people at CF, and I just don't have it in me to deal with those people anymore.

Hopefully, we can get some good discussions going here, and we can help one another grow in our relationship with God and with each other.

O0



  I think that we can come up with some good discussions. I am also at the end of my patience with the games on the other message board.
To know him and to make him known

Andy S. Wright

Concerning Frogster/Pinetree:



I got hooked and reported by him once. It was my fault. I failed to smell the stench of troll on him until it was too late.  Lesson learned....
Whatever doesn't kill you may make you stronger, but whatever does kill you will make you invincible. - 1 Samuel 17:37