January 21, 2021, 10:23:59 pm

A flood of change

Started by Foadle, March 16, 2013, 02:25:23 am

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Optimax

Quote from: Foadle on March 23, 2013, 07:27:04 pm
Okay I will try this post again...with a bit more order.  Started writing but it was becoming very scattered.
I can see where you are coming from in that maybe meat was being eaten at the time of Abel.  While that is a possibility I am not sure it is actually what was happening.  For me the answer is more likely to be found in Genesis 3.  Please bear with me as I go through a little of what I see happening here.


We are told at the end of Gen 2 that Adam and Eve were both naked and where not ashamed.  I believe that this nakedness is talking on more than one level.  While they were physically naked they were also spiritually naked - they were totally exposed before God and didn't have a problem with that.  They were in intimate fellowship with Him, and were known in every detail by Him.


However in Gen 3 after they have eaten the forbidden fruit in v7 it says that their eyes were opened and they knew that they were naked.  Another words before it wasn't even something they thought about but now they did.  And in realising that God knew every intimate detail about them brought fear because they had been disobedient.  I believe that although Adam tried to hide he knew that God knew.


When they first became aware of their nakedness they sewed fig leaves together as a covering. This always brings funny but sad images to my mind.  First of all how did they sew them together as needle and thread had not been invented?  Just an off the track thought.  But the one that really has me thinking is this: While I have had nothing to do with fig trees I have had plenty to do with other plants...and well, I'm yet to find a leaf that would be sturdy enough to last to long. 


There are the traditional grass skirts and things of the pacific ocean but even some points on them.  In a trip to NZ a few years ago I did a Maori experience tour type thing.  They also had a tradition of grass skirts used for special festive occasions.  The lady doing the tour (who was Maori) explained that not only did these skirts take about a week to make and even they did not last overly long.  There skirts were made from reeds which was different from what the Polynesians used.


Then after God has confronted them about their sin, He made them clothes of skin (v21) and clothed them.  Now I have heard a couple of theories on this and one is that up to the fall we just had exposed muscle and stuff and the other being that God had to take an animal slaughter it and then use the animal hide to make garments.  I believe the latter is more likely. 


In doing this I also believe that God was setting up design for offerings.  Up to this point Adam and Eve would not have experienced death in any capacity.  Yet to cover their sin and the shame it brought an animal "sacrificed" its life.  Every time new garments were required an animal's life was lost.  In sacrificing the animal to God I think Abel was recognising that it was God who covers them.  Ancient historical records show that early clothes used the sheep skin not just the wool.  Over time as a better understanding of fibres developed the wool rather than the hide was used.


That is mostly pretty good thinking! :D

Optimax

How death/sin got into the world?

Adam and Eve was created in the image of God.

Until Adam ate of the fruit there was no sin in either.

Question.

Is the devil "death" personified?

Yes.

Is the devil "sin" personified?

He was in the garden waiting for his opportunity and took it with.

Yet sin/death was not entered into the world with the devil even though he was on the earth.

Sin/death did not enter until Adam ate.

Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:  KJV

Why did sin enter with Adam and not already have entered because of the devil who is sin/death?

The devil had no authority in the earth.

Adam had authority in the earth given by God.

What Adam did mattered.

DiscipleHeLovesToo

so which is sin; the thought that leads to action, or the action?

(Heb 3:10 KJV) Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
(Heb 3:11 KJV) So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
(Heb 3:12 KJV) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

(Rom 14:23 KJV) And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Joh 17:3  And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Optimax

All that you listed proceeds from the source of sin/death.

That source being the horrendous thing Adam received in his spirit when he ate of the fruit and which all mankind is born with demanding the new birth.

Foadle

It all sounds well and good until you realise that when Adam was put in the garden he was to tend and keep it.  That word "keep" actually translates guard.  Why would he need to guard the garden from anything if there was no evil at this time. Man did not corrupt Lucifer.  It was his work that they were to guard the garden against.  And it is pretty clear at the beginning of Gen 3 that it was he who brought about the eating in the garden.


Eve in deed did eat out of deception (deceived by the devil) but Adam ate out of disobedience because he listened to his wife over God.  How could we judge angels if we were the cause behind their corruption in the first place?

DiscipleHeLovesToo

good questions!

the word 'dress' can mean either 'till' or 'keep in bondage' - obviously the second usage does not seem appropriate.  the word 'keep' can mean 'guard' or 'attend to'...

the serpent targeted Eve, not Adam - this is generally believed to be because Adam had heard from God to not eat the forbidden fruit but Eve had not, however scripture does not say why Adam remained silent or why Eve was the target of the serpent - only that Adam was not decieved and Eve was. 

at the time we will judge angels, we will be as Adam was when he was created, not as he was after the fall or as we are today.  the fact that we will judge angels indicates some level of authority over them.



however the questions remain of

-how Adam became alone;  if God withdrew His presence from Adam, then He did something for which He said the result was 'not good'; can this be? 

-could the God who sacrificed His Son for man knowingly put man in a garden with a powerful, corrupt angel and not provide man with knowledge of this and instruction of how to guard the garden against satan?

IMO there are three points here to consider:

-scripture interprets scripture - there is much that we simply can't know from scripture about the beginning of the earth, the beginning of man, and the beginning of evil - while word studies are important in interpreting scripture, they do not have equal weight to scripture IMO, and in these cases scripture simply does not clearly provide the answers - traditional interpretations are no more clearly rooted in scripture than alternative interpretations

-tradition points to the action of disobedience as sin (of eating the forbidden fruit in this case), while scripture points to the decision of disobedience as sin (unbelief)

-while the world is clearly becoming less hospitable for man, reborn believers have the authority to reverse the effects in their individual lives by speaking in faith rather than by sight - this i believe is clear from scripture

Joh 17:3  And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Optimax

Lets look at scripture.

God said that it was not good for man to be alone.

God said "I will make a help meet for him".
Gen 2:18-24

18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Notice though!

God said He was going to make a help meet for Adam.

Then He started making animals.

Remember that God is the most purposeful being we will ever meet.

He said He was going to make Adam a "help meet", and made animals.

What is God thinking?

What is He wanting Adam to see and understand.

Adam named the animals, won't spend time on that right now.

19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Adam gave names to all cattle and fowl of the air and every beast of the field but among them was not found a help meet for him.

Notice that among the animals was not found a help meet for Adam.

Genesis Chapter One and Two are not in chronological order.

Gen 1 gives an account of creation.

Gen two fills in some details.

Gen one tells us that God made man(kind) in God's Image.

Male and female created He them.

Gen 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. KJV

They were given direction and purpose.

They were told among other things to be fruitful and multiply.

Gen 1:28
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. KJV

In Gen. two the details are given where it is revealed that God made Adam first.

God created the animals and brought them to Adam to name.

In the process of naming them Adam learned they were pairs.

Each animal had a "mate" of its own kind.

Adam did not find a help meet for him among the animals.

None of them was "his kind".

How can Adam fulfill "be fruitful and multiply by himself?

He needs help not just to multiply but to have a companion like himself as the animals have.

The words used by God "help meet".

OT:5057

The word means "before in the presence of,in front of.

The use of the word indicated that its object is immediately before something or someone.

The use of the word in Gen 2:18 means someone to correspond to him just as the males and females of thhe animals corresponded to or matched one another.
C. Preposition.
neged OT:5048, "before; in the presence of; in the sight of; in front of; in one's estimation; straight ahead." This word occurs 156 times in biblical Hebrew as a preposition and an adverb. Basically the word indicates that its object is immediately "before" something or someone. It is used in Gen 2:18, where God said He would make Adam "a help meet for him," or someone to correspond to him, just as the males and females of the animals corresponded to (matched) one another.
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.)

20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

God then made Eve.

21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

Notice what Adam said. This one is like me!

23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. KJV

Adam was not "alone" from God at this point.

God is with them both and fellowships with them.

When Adam ate the fruit if the forbidden tree was when they were separated from God.

DiscipleHeLovesToo

Thank you Brother! 

i really appreciate you taking the time to include scripture, and the word definitions are also very helpful!  it is very difficult to discuss the things of God without references to specific scripture.

what you have shared is essentially what i was taught about the beginnings of man, and i don't presume to say it is flawed, but i still don't see it as securely anchored in scripture as is the concept of 'being saved by grace through faith', for example.  in my mind one must make an assumption about what exactly God meant by His statement about Adam being alone, as there is no clear confirming scripture for this concept; while this interpretation does fit the scripture in Genesis, there is no confirmation elsewhere in scripture that when God saw that Adam was alone He was referring to his lack of a mate - there is room for alternate interpretations as well.  i'm not saying that the interpretation i suggested is the absolute correct one either - my whole point has been that on this subject we just don't have confirming scripture; the 'second witness' of scripture is lacking.  this is not to say that God left something out, but that perhaps we have all the information we need on this to avoid distraction from what is clear in scripture and confirmed by scripture and that we need to focus on in order to walk by faith in this life.

for example,  we are told in Genesis that Eve ate the forbidden fruit first and Adam next, so we don't know from what is provided in Genesis if either Adam or Eve or both were deceived - but 1Tim 2:14 makes it crystal clear that Eve was deceived but Adam was not - this confirming, interpretive scripture leaves no doubt.  however, i'm not aware of a confirming, interpretive scripture on what exactly God meant when He said that it was not good for Adam to be alone.

i wish i could relate what i went through with bladder cancer; the treatment was hellish - but i just don't feel comfortable with a detailed description as i think it might inspire fear in someone who is facing bladder cancer now - but it would help to be able to tell the whole story to make my point.  anyway, suffice it to say that it was hellish and the doctors told me i would have to continue the treatments every six months for the rest of my life.  as i began to go through this, i focused on Hezekiah's 'boil on the groin' - i had found this account when i was in the hospital recovering between the first two surgeries to remove the initial tumor, and it inspired me to believe God for healing.  so i researched translations, did word studies, sifted through commentaries, etc., trying to learn exactly how Hezekiah had received his healing, and got nowhere.  but God was so merciful; He led me to teachings on speaking in faith and healing through the scripture, and the Holy Spirit led me to begin saying that i was healed by the stripes of Jesus.  the doctor would show me the xrays showing the tumors, show me the blood tests confirming the xrays, etc., etc. etc., but i felt led to acknowledge these facts and yet say that i was still healed by the stripes of Jesus.  my doctors were concerned that maybe the cancer had spread to my brain and i was losing my mind (many would say that i already had before the cancer :) ), but i ignored them and just kept speaking what God had said through Peter, Jesus and others in the NT.  in a year i was cancer free, and after two years i felt led by the Holy Spirit and stopped taking the treatments; that was 13 years ago now.  now i'm not saying that this is a procedure for everyone to use in recieving healing, it's just what God led me to do.  what i learned was that while the account of Hezekiah's boil had inspired the faith that healed me, it was the clear teachings of the NT that enabled me to receive this healing.

i'm still in the ballpark btw
Joh 17:3  And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.