Word of Faith "Agreement" Doctrine - Nonsense In Disguise.

Started by davemcclean, March 09, 2012, 03:57:35 am

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davemcclean

I've been doing some researching and one of the things I've looked at is the "agreement" teaching. I always wondered why so many prayers I prayed and agreed with loads of other people WEREN'T done by God.

...something always bothered me about this. Were we not really "agreed" in some way? Was God telling fibs? Had I just eaten too much cheese?

Matthew 18:19 "Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven."

Yesterday I found this :

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The claim is made by that if two Christians agree about a specific issue, then whatever that agreement might be, it must be accomplished by God according to the wishes of the believers. This is claimed to be the "prayer of agreement" or "bringing our faith into agreement with yours" or "releasing the power of the prayer of agreement".

However, is that what the verse actually says? The premise sounds so good and is based on the Scripture, so how could anyone disagree with that teaching? The difficulty with the Scriptural foundation is that Word of Faith teachers base their doctrines on "proof" texts which they claim support their beliefs. In many instances the single verse provided appears to confirm the teaching, but on closer examination it is revealed that the verse has been pulled out of the context in which it was given. This is true in the case about the prayer of agreement.

Full article here; http://www.ondoctrine.com/10prayof.htm

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This has changed my prayer life immediately. Indeed I have repented of quoting this at God in prayer and "demanding" he does things according to my agreement. Additionally I question the prayers I've prayed for years "In the name of Jesus we bind you spirit of blah blah blah"....you get the idea. I think they will go and a more "humble" approach to God take its place.

Optimax

The prayer of agreement is a very powerful prayer. Great for husband and wife.

Like any prayer of faith though many people pray it, not in faith, but thinking they are, but in either/both foolishness and/or presumption.

Then when it does not work they poo poo and find excuses why it did not work. :)

jiminpa

Just checked that site.  It is highly biased against anything of the Holy Spirit.  It is a reformation theology site.

You can be sure that they believe only three things: God stopped giving further revelation and guidance after the book of Revelation was written.  The founders of the reformation are as authoritative as scripture because of what God revealed to them after the book of Revelation was written.  Scripture must always support the reformation at all costs.

Their discussion of any portion of WOF is as out of context as they claim WOF doctrine is.  In fact, reformed theology people do it much worse.  I'm sorry, but I've had much too much opportunity to observe their tactics, and they are not honest.  Having said that, I can wholeheartedly point out that there are reformationists who don't realize that they are quoting liars, and believe that they are contending for the truth.  But believe me, the sources of their information are straight up liars, who know what they are doing. 

And remember, I am not WOF.  I just can't stand by and let the lies against WOF pass unchallenged.  I have started discussion of the legitimately questionable segments of WOF doctrine. 

I only say that to illuminate the unreliability of your resource.  It would be like trying to have an honest discussion moderated by the infamous members (we know who they are) of the SF forum at CF, (not going to happen).  Reformationists hate WOF just as much and will say or do anything to discredit anyone their leaders even label WOF. 

Now on topic.  While I agree that that verse can't be some sort of "write your own ticket with God," when I look at those verses I see verses 19 and 20 to be a single thought about the power of unity. 
I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.

davemcclean

Quote from: jiminpa on March 09, 2012, 11:22:26 am
Just checked that site.  It is highly biased against anything of the Holy Spirit.  It is a reformation theology site.

You can be sure that they believe only three things: God stopped giving further revelation and guidance after the book of Revelation was written.  The founders of the reformation are as authoritative as scripture because of what God revealed to them after the book of Revelation was written.  Scripture must always support the reformation at all costs.

Their discussion of any portion of WOF is as out of context as they claim WOF doctrine is.  In fact, reformed theology people do it much worse.  I'm sorry, but I've had much too much opportunity to observe their tactics, and they are not honest.  Having said that, I can wholeheartedly point out that there are reformationists who don't realize that they are quoting liars, and believe that they are contending for the truth.  But believe me, the sources of their information are straight up liars, who know what they are doing. 

And remember, I am not WOF.  I just can't stand by and let the lies against WOF pass unchallenged.  I have started discussion of the legitimately questionable segments of WOF doctrine. 

I only say that to illuminate the unreliability of your resource.  It would be like trying to have an honest discussion moderated by the infamous members (we know who they are) of the SF forum at CF, (not going to happen).  Reformationists hate WOF just as much and will say or do anything to discredit anyone their leaders even label WOF. 

Now on topic.  While I agree that that verse can't be some sort of "write your own ticket with God," when I look at those verses I see verses 19 and 20 to be a single thought about the power of unity.


The site may well be anti WOF. But that doesn't change the fact that ONE verse has been pulled out of context to justify an entire doctrine. If you can show me that the verse in question on agreement is being taken IN CONTEXT and is backed up by other scripture (the principle of scripture interpreting scripture) then please do so.

jiminpa

Quote from: davemcclean on March 09, 2012, 11:35:15 am
The site may well be anti WOF. But that doesn't change the fact that ONE verse has been pulled out of context to justify an entire doctrine. If you can show me that the verse in question on agreement is being taken IN CONTEXT and is backed up by other scripture (the principle of scripture interpreting scripture) then please do so.
...and I acknowledged that the verse has to have a more moderate meaning than either of the perspectives by WOF or reformed theology.

I am willing to elaborate my own perspective.  Prior to verse 18 Jesus was talking about forgiving a brother.  Then verse 18 is the often quoted bind on Earth-bound in Heaven passage, then verses 19 and 20, then Peter comes back and readdresses what Jesus said about forgiveness.  The whole chapter until Peter tries for the loophole is short teachings, so it is problematic to try to force Matthew 18 as a single thought, when it obviously, (at least to me), is not. 
I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.

DiscipleHeLovesToo

this is difficult to absorb if you take the traditional interpretation of faith that we beg and God performs; He responds to us.

but if you consider that God has given US authority over this earth (physical authority through Adam, spiritual authority through Jesus), and we are to use that authority according to the continuous leading of the Holy Spirit, it begins to fit into place.  one more piece of info needed is that 'sin' is not an action, it is not believing God about something.

you actually have to go back to Mat 18:1 to get the true context; the disciples wanted to know 'who is greatest in the Kingdom of heaven?' - of course they meant aside from God :)

Jesus begins His answer with a rebuke:

'DH LT' translation:
Mat 18
3) 'if you you don't change your attitudes and become like little children, you won't make it to heaven to begin with.'
4) if you will humble yourself to God as this little child has humbled himself to us, you will be greatest in the kingdom of heaven (for the humble are greatest in the kingdom of heaven).
....
15) but if your (spiritual) brother shall lift himself up in pride against you...
...
17) and if he will not listen to any of his (spiritual) brothers,  treat him as you would anyone in unbelief (which is to say 'preach the gospel of reconciliation to him' - Jesus never punished 'heathens and publicans').
18) Truly, as humble children led by the direction of your Father God, if you bind anything in the physical  (because you are led by God to do so) (through the authority God has given you through Adam) it shall be bound in the spiritual (through the authority God has given you through Me)...
19) again, if two of you (as humble children) agree on earth (through the authority given to you by God through Adam) about the leading of your Father God in any thing you call for or require (through the authority given to you by God through Me), you will receive it from God (because He has already given it to you in the spiritual)
20) because where two or more of you are working together (because God has led you to do so), you have My authority (I am there as well)

a note about prayers not answered; now don't get offended here - but when you pray in true ('unfeigned') faith, you stand until the thing has come to pass - once you judge that it didn't work, you are no longer in faith.

GLY!!!



Joh 17:3  And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

davemcclean

Just a quickie before bed - "but if you consider that God has given US authority over this earth (physical authority through Adam, spiritual authority through Jesus), and we are to use that authority according to the continuous leading of the Holy Spirit, it begins to fit into place.  one more piece of info needed is that 'sin' is not an action, it is not believing God about something."

Can you point me to some scriptures I can chew over that say we've this authority?

Dave :)

DiscipleHeLovesToo

physical authority through Adam Gen 1:26; 1:28; Psa 78:41
spiritual authority through Jesus Mat 10:8; Luke 9:1 (interpreted by Acts 10:34; Rom 2:11)
led by God Rom 8:14; Gal 5:18
sin is unbelief Rom 4:20; Rom 14:23

GLYB!!!

Joh 17:3  And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

JTM³




[spoiler]

Job got HEALED, and YOU can be too!!

Pro tip: Read to the END of the book. Not just man's ideas. They're usually wrong. =P

Jesus = The revealed will of God for all people for all time.
[/spoiler]

davemcclean


DianeL

I don't think anyone knows why some prayers are answered and some aren't, whether in agreement with 2 or more or just 1 person. I guess it's part of the journey we are on, that God is good all the time, so we must be missing something, not necessarily that we come up short, but a good reason to press into God and ask Him to reveal the mystery.
34
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
35
By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another. John 13

lismore

Quote from: DianeL on March 10, 2012, 06:48:37 am
I guess it's part of the journey we are on, that God is good all the time, so we must be missing something, not necessarily that we come up short, but a good reason to press into God and ask Him to reveal the mystery.


Yes. Revelation.

I think it's also good to look at who that verse was written to.  They had been with Jesus for a while and learning all the time.  They were maturing and Jesus wanted them to mature.

Obviously if two young believers come together and 'agree' for some silly thing......it probably wont happen.

But two mature and Spirit filled believers..........would they agree for something that would be against God's purpose?   I hope not.