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October 21, 2019, 09:12:26 am

Job....some questions.

Started by charityagape, August 22, 2008, 09:02:31 pm

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charityagape

There's always so much talk on Job (at CF), the poster child for today's Christian, that I went and read the whole book again in the other night and I wanted to talk about it a little with people who have a balanced perspective.

Big question Job 42:11

Then all his brothers and all his sisters and all who had known him before came to him, and they ate bread with him in his house; and they consoledhim and comforted him for all the adversities that the LORD had broughton him. And each one gave him one piece of money, and each a ring ofgold. 

Unlike the beginning of Job, this verse seems to leave little doubt that God did these things to Job.  I say seems because I have to interpret everything from what I know about God and I know that God is not the adversary and there is no evil in Him, however, what do yall think about this verse?


Is Job's sin self-righteousness?  He goes on and on about how he is pure based on his actions, is this what he's repenting in the end?  And Job's three friends were obviosly wrong for pointing their fingers at him because bad things were happening to Job (hey that sounds a lot like CF) does that mean that the young guy, Elihu is right? 


Any Job studier's out there?

Pete

It's funny you should mention Job, since people at CF seem obsessed with the guy.

The other day, I told one of the people at CF that I was going to get them a shirt that said "WWJD - What Would Job Do"

I'll add something of more value to the conversation a bit later... 
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

charityagape

It's that obsession with Job that had me read the whole book the other night, not an easy task as all the speakers seem to just go on and on and on until (I hope this isn't too unchristian of me?) you just want to tell them to put a sock in it.

LittleRocketBoy

August 22, 2008, 10:29:56 pm #3 Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 10:44:11 pm by LittleRocketBoy
Hi!
I love Job. Great book!

Concerning this:

Job 42:
11 Then all his brothers and all his sisters and all who had known him before came to him, and they ate bread with him in his house; and they consoled him and comforted him for all the adversities that the LORD had brought on him. And each one gave him one piece of money, and each a ring of gold.

Lets look at a couple other things, and then come back to this verse.

Ask yourself a simple question.

If this verse did not exist in the book, and if all you had to go by is the actual account in the opening chapters, who would you say actually put their hand to injure Job?  I think anyone would read the opening chapters and conclude that the individual that actually carried out the actions against Job was Satan.

For instance, one of the clearest statements is here:

Job 2:
7 So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.


The point I first want to make is that God does not pass the buck or duck responsibility for what happens in His creation. Even tho He did not personally reach down with His own hand and afflict Job, His permission that allowed Satan to carry these things out is equated to Him doing it Himself. But what Satan wanted was for GOD to carry of the afflictions with His own hand!

First we see Satan trying to get God do just that, to reach down with His own hand and afflict Job:
Job 1:
11 
But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will renounce thee to thy face.

Did God do what Satan suggested? Absolutely not! Not personally, as we saw above. But with the permission of God Satan's actions are equated to God having actually carried out these things. This is a continued theme in the book. It begins in the last verse of chapter 1:


Job 1
21 
and he said, Naked came I out of my mother?s womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God with foolishness.


Is this in fact the exact truth? Was it God that personally reached down and "taketh away" from Job? No, we see it was Satan. But God as the creator who set all things in motion is ultimately responsible for the events that occur in His creation. The narrator of the book has what is called in literary terms the "God view" of events;  which knows and tells the absolute truth about everything. It is said that Job did not sin or charge God foolishly. So the statement "the Lord taketh away" was in fact a word for word quote of what Job said. But Job's statement is not God talking. While it has some misconception in it, there was no sin in what he said. He was honoring God by ascribing all things power and sovereignty to God. This was not an accusation against God in intent or speech. We see it again in chapter 2 when after Satan afflicted Job, Job's wife ascribes these afflictions as coming personally from God by calling upon Job to renounce Him:


Job 2:
9
Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still hold fast thine integrity? renounce God, and die.



Again this is an accurate quote of what Job's wife perceived and said. But that does not mean it is the absolute truth. This is merely a revelation of her perceptions and heart.  Job too himself reveals his own perception of these affections as having coming from God:


Job 2:
10 
But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.



Again the ultimate responsibility is ascribed to God. It is His creation. Even tho is was actually Satan who personally carried out the affliction of boils, ultimately the events in creation all go back to God. Again Job's statement that evil came from God was not exactly the truth. We read exactly where the boils came from. They came from Satan. This is not contradiction in the Word. The fact that God allowed this to happen is equated to Him having carried out the actions.The statement of Job does not come in the form of an accusation. He is merely honoring God as being the ultimate creator of all things.



Here is another good example of someone's perception being inflected into the story:

Job 1:
16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.


Was this the "fire of God" or was it from Satan? The statement "fire from God" is the perception of the servant who told the story. It is not the narrator (with the "God view") speaking. The servant thought that these things came personally from God and spoke thusly. But he was wrong. They came from Satan merely with God's permission.

So this brings us back to the quote in question:


Job 42:
11 Then all his brothers and all his sisters and all who had known him before came to him, and they ate bread with him in his house; and they consoled him and comforted him for all the adversities that the LORD had brought on him. And each one gave him one piece of money, and each a ring of gold.

The questions we have to ask when reading this are the same.

Who actually carried out the afflictions as revealed in the opening chapters?
Satan...

Are the words spoken here the words of the narrator with his "God view" of the story or are they merely the perceptions of the people in the story?
It is a combination of the two!
These folk may have in fact come to Job and consoled and comforted him for what THEY perceived to be afflictions from God. Like Job, Job's wife, and the servant mentioned above, these folks perceived that God did these things. But that was just their perception. Their actions were their response to their perception. This is the narrator with the "God view" speaking here, and he is giving us the true story about what these people did and why they did it. He is accurately revealing their perceptions. But he is not saying their perceptions were the actual facts. He is not authenticating their perceptions or actions. He is merely and accurately relating what they thought was going on and their subsequent actions toward Job. They thought God had done these things to Job, and so comforted and consoled him for that reason.

So while the book accurately presents God as the ultimate source of all things that occur in His creation, we should not take the perceptions of these people to be accurate as to the actual perpetrator and whose hand afflicted Job. It was Satan, as clearly shown in the opening chapters of the book. God allowed it, which is obvious by the fact that the events occurred at all.

Let me kno what you think.
Dids

charityagape

I think that's a pretty excellent explanation and very helpful.

Pete

If I may go off-topic for a moment...

Great post, Dids!  That's why I invited you here!  Let that light shine!

Back to to the topic...
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

charityagape

Yeah dids!

So, Elihu, wasn't reprimanded, you think he was pretty much on target?

LittleRocketBoy

Quote from: Pete on August 22, 2008, 10:47:29 pm
If I may go off-topic for a moment...

Great post, Dids!  That's why I invited you here!  Let that light shine!

Back to to the topic...


What do we come away from Job with?
Do we fear that God is going to "JOB" us?
There are other considerations.
First of all, we do not have a lot of knowledge about what revelation Job was operating under. Some say that Job lived between the time of the flood and the time God raised up the Jews. This was a period of time were the memory of the flood was still fresh in their culture and minds. There perception was that God sends floods on sinful people. But the lesson of the flood was also that God saves the righteous through the flood! Job did not catch this part of the lesson in that he feared that his kids might sin and God would send judgment.  We see him sacrificing, so there was some sort of covenant there. But we have no idea what level of revelation Job had. Does God count sin against us when we do not have the revelation? Was sin counted against people when there was no law? And even in the OT faithfulness is counted as righteousness. These are all things to take into consideration when reading Job. Job was not a Christian. He did not have an advocate at the right hand of the Father.
So how much can we take away from Job as to the nature of God?
First off... whatever you take away from it, realize that Jesus, and not Job, is the exact image and default concept about who and what the Father is to us. No matter what happened in Job, as Christians we look to Jesus as the author and finisher of our faith!

Pete

Quote from: LittleRocketBoy on August 22, 2008, 11:20:26 pm
First off... whatever you take away from it, realize that Jesus, and not Job, is the exact image and default concept about who and what the Father is to us. No matter what happened in Job, as Christians we look to Jesus as the author and finisher of our faith!


This is and always has been something strong on my heart.

If we try to understand God by looking at His attributes and how He handled other people throughout scripture, we will end up with a flawed view of who He is.

We must start by seeing Jesus, who came to show us the express image of the Father!  No man comes to the Father, but by Him!

Jesus showed us the perfect image of the Father, and He did not fail!

"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

LittleRocketBoy

Quote from: charityagape on August 22, 2008, 11:11:21 pm
Yeah dids!

So, Elihu, wasn't reprimanded, you think he was pretty much on target?


I think much of What Elihu said was truth. He alludes to inspiration and imples that this is his source:

Job 32:
8 But there is a spirit in man, and the breath of the Almighty giveth them understanding.



I like what he said about Job, and this is often missed by many who read the book:

Job 32:
2 Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.


This is what I hear from many who try to use Job to justify their lack of faith and ascribe these sufferings to the absolute will, purpose, and plan of God for not only Job, but our lives also. they want to justify and legitimize their own spirituality and faith (or lack thereof).

I use these word of Elihu as a perfect example of the operation of spiritual prophesy:

Job 32:
18 For I am full of words; the spirit within me constraineth me.
19 Behold, my belly is as wine which hath no vent; like new bottles it is ready to burst.
20 I will speak, that I may be refreshed; I will open my lips and answer.

This is wonderful and exactly how it feels when I prophesy/teach.

Elihu says concernig his own words:
Job 33:
2 Behold now, I have opened my mouth, my tongue hath spoken in my mouth.
3 My words shall utter the uprightness of my heart: and that which my lips know they shall speak sincerely.
4 The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty giveth me life.

One might suggest that he is speaking presumpteously. I think not. If I recall, Elihu was not rebuked by God like Job's other three friends.

Job 42:
7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.


Job 42:
9 So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the LORD commanded them: and the LORD accepted Job.


Elihu is not referred to in these rebukes.





LittleRocketBoy

Quote from: Pete on August 22, 2008, 11:37:23 pm


This is and always has been something strong on my heart.

If we try to understand God by looking at His attributes and how He handled other people throughout scripture, we will end up with a flawed view of who He is.

We must start by seeing Jesus, who came to show us the express image of the Father!  No man comes to the Father, but by Him!

Jesus showed us the perfect image of the Father, and He did not fail!



This is a fact I have tried and tried to get across to the folks over at CF. 
Yes God is sovereign over His creation.
Yes He omnipotent, omnipresent.

But these are not the  traits by which He wants us to see and understand Him. He wants us to see and understand Him through the lens of Jesus. The general attributes of God render you a divine being who is beyond our reach, beyond our understanding, and beyond our application. Jesus resolves the unreachableness of God by showing us what God is really like, something we would never be able to see without His revelation of the Father.


charityagape

Quote from: LittleRocketBoy on August 22, 2008, 11:45:17 pm


I think much of What Elihu said was truth. He alludes to inspiration and imples that this is his source:

Job 32:
8 But there is a spirit in man, and the breath of the Almighty giveth them understanding.



I like what he said about Job, and this is often missed by many who read the book:

Job 32:
2 Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.


This is what I hear from many who try to use Job to justify their lack of faith and ascribe these sufferings to the absolute will, purpose, and plan of God for not only Job, but our lives also. they want to justify and legitimize their own spirituality and faith (or lack thereof).

I use these word of Elihu as a perfect example of the operation of spiritual prophesy:

Job 32:
18 For I am full of words; the spirit within me constraineth me.
19 Behold, my belly is as wine which hath no vent; like new bottles it is ready to burst.
20 I will speak, that I may be refreshed; I will open my lips and answer.

This is wonderful and exactly how it feels when I prophesy/teach.

Elihu says concernig his own words:
Job 33:
2 Behold now, I have opened my mouth, my tongue hath spoken in my mouth.
3 My words shall utter the uprightness of my heart: and that which my lips know they shall speak sincerely.
4 The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty giveth me life.

One might suggest that he is speaking presumpteously. I think not. If I recall, Elihu was not rebuked by God like Job's other three friends.

Job 42:
7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.


Job 42:
9 So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the LORD commanded them: and the LORD accepted Job.


Elihu is not referred to in these rebukes.







Yep, what I read is that Elihu did speak by the inspiration of God.  I also noticed that not once did Job ask for God to save him....not once.  In fact he only accused God of unjustly harming him.

Stephen Worrell

Oh, okay ... I thought this was a topic about some problem on your job!!! [from the topic title]

Well, personally, about Job, I get tired of the extremist WOF interpretations that say Job feared, therefore he offered sacrifice, therefore because he feared, Satan was able to come and destroy his life, etc etc.

I'm also tired of the extremist anti-WOF interpretations that say that God wants us to die a horrible death and suffer as much as possible.

On the one hand, you have people who think that everything that happens to you is YOUR fault.
On the other hand, you have people who think that everything that happens to you is GOD's fault.

There has to be some balance to these two extremes.

I believe God is good and wants us to prosper and be in health.

But I don't believe that if you have a problem it's because you lack faith or have a secret sin or didn't pay off the preacher enough to please God to keep the demons off your back.

There's got to be an honest-to-God middle ground which acknowledges the sovereign power of God without making God to be the Evil PuppetMaster.

DiscipleWhomJesusLoves

This is off topic but I want to share a joke:

When my pastor was a young Christian, he thot that the book of Job was a place to find jobs.

That's not as bad as Jerry Savelle -- he thot that "diverse disease" was "diver's disease".

ha ha ha

Stephen Worrell

oops

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YUSbdfiU6M

____________________________

Wait ... WHAT did he say???!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJjmxtsec-c

____________________________


CHURCH FIGHT!!!!  CHURCH FIGHT!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-QN5BeQC2Y

____________________________


Funeral fight!!! Funeral fight!!! [who was the squealing pig??]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cUZS70jPk0

____________________________

Oh, no he DIT'NT!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXshJ7a-qa4

_____________________________

A Holy Ghost what????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jhw_5ye8Qo

_____________________________

Watch your step

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwOlA9OInKc

_____________________________

Preacher Puncher

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYsxACQLBdk

_____________________________

Don't PO the priest!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X39hHGqGXAs

_____________________________

More funniness in church

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuBaWbPfdWA

charityagape