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November 13, 2019, 07:57:00 am

The falling away

Started by AudioArtist, September 06, 2011, 04:11:01 pm

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AudioArtist

I don't understand the meaning of the great falling away (such as in 2 Thess. and Jesus' question 'will I find faith on the Earth?') To me - for all the problems we see in the body and for all the dead and compromising congregations - the Church is going through revival, renewal and reformation. Lost doctrines are being restored, the love of God and of people and of the presence of God has returned to the fore, and God's spiritual power is higher and more accepted among believers than it once was. There are more people becoming Christians today than there ever has been in history (even if church attendance among most denominations is at an all time low, especially in Europe), and His beautiful fire is ravaging certain sections of the globe.

Not that I'd want to change God's word - and there are indeed many departing from the faith (I sadly know some personally and pray for their return often) - but the way the scripture has traditionally been understand doesn't seem to tally with reality or with the idea of Christ returning to a spotless bride.

Hisgirl

Well Robert, though it may go against all the current prophecy, maybe there are more days to these end days than one would think.  Ever since Jesus died on the cross, we have been in the 'end days'.  Lately, folks are thinking it could happen any moment, but maybe the 'great falling away' is years to come. 
"It's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it."  My Mama

pastorzzub

The great falling away isn't a great falling away, it is a great departure.  It is the rapture of the church.  There is no Scripture that says that the end times church is going to be dead.

Yes, there will be false teachers, lovers of self, legalists, people who have never seen a miracle and claiming to have the heart of Jesus, money mad freaks who use the gospel as an excuse to rip people off.  But in the midst of that there will be a lively, righteous, grace filled, love filled, God filled church.

Full of the Word.  Full of the Spirit.  Full of the nations.  Full of love and grace.

DiscipleWhomJesusLoves

Agree with Ps Ben that the "falling away" is a "departing away" (i.e. the rapture) as translated by some old Bibles. That's what my Ps believes too.

sharonl

Great teaching - first time I have heard that teaching that the falling away is the Rapture - makes sense.
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DiscipleHeLovesToo

the greek word for 'falling away' seems to mean something more along the lines of people abandoning their profession of faith in God:

(from the Word Study)

G646
ἀποστασία
apostasía; gen. apostasías, fem. noun from aphístēmi (G868), to depart. Departure, apostasy. Occurs in Act_21:21 translated "forsake" and in 2Th_2:3, "a falling away"; Sept.: 2Ch_29:19; Jer_29:32. In Act_21:21 the new Christian believers among the Jews, having departed from Moses and coming to Jesus Christ, decided that they should stay apart from Moses, i.e., their Judaistic practices, for they were in a new dispensation. They were not Judaizing Christians, but Christians standing apart from Moses. In 2Th_2:3 the word apostasía does not refer to genuine Christians who depart from the faith, but mere professors who, without divine grace, succumb to the Satanic deception of the Antichrist. If those who are truly Christ's and through the Holy Spirit have become members of His body (1Co_12:13) could be detached, then the assurances Jesus gave that His own will not perish would be made null and void (Joh_10:28-29). See Sept.: 2Ch_29:19.


note the 'and' that links this 'falling away' to the appearance of the 'son of perdition'.  i have no doubt that the Holy Spirit will let us know when this day comes.


GLY!!!


Joh 17:3  And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

lismore

Quote from: AudioArtist on September 06, 2011, 04:11:01 pm
Not that I'd want to change God's word - and there are indeed many departing from the faith (I sadly know some personally and pray for their return often) - but the way the scripture has traditionally been understand doesn't seem to tally with reality or with the idea of Christ returning to a spotless bride.


Hello :)

'There is only one name given by God by which we must be saved'.

'You must be born again'.

I think many Christian leaders, denominations and individual Christians these days are teaching that there are many paths to God, sincere muslims and bhuddists are saved and other such nonsense.  This to me is the great falling away.

Based on my experience I think only a percentage of churches locally or worldwide would be preaching anything approaching the gospel, then there is the Holy Spirit to consider.

God Bless :)


davemcclean

February 11, 2012, 10:06:30 am #7 Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 06:26:37 pm by davemcclean
Quote from: pastorzzub on September 06, 2011, 04:37:11 pm
The great falling away isn't a great falling away, it is a great departure.  It is the rapture of the church.  There is no Scripture that says that the end times church is going to be dead.

Yes, there will be false teachers, lovers of self, legalists, people who have never seen a miracle and claiming to have the heart of Jesus, money mad freaks who use the gospel as an excuse to rip people off.  But in the midst of that there will be a lively, righteous, grace filled, love filled, God filled church.

Full of the Word.  Full of the Spirit.  Full of the nations.  Full of love and grace.


Sorry to disagree but this really annoyed me....you need to be very careful what you are teaching. There are clear "warnings" all through the NT about deception / falling away / names being erased from the book of life etc and NONE of it is in the context of "rejoice people the falling away is a departure". This is a blatant re-interpretation of scripture to suit your own personal theology, not an open honest aligning of your theology with scripture.

CLEARLY different language is used and the context gives these messages as a warning.

You are on very thin ice if you are leading people to believe "don't worry it's gonna be ok there's a church coming full of all this power, blessing and overcoming"....sounds like the latter rain deception / nonsense. Chinese christians have been quoted as saying that one of the most damaging things was missionary after missionary coming over from the USA telling them all about this amazing latter day overcoming church of power and authority....when the reality has been dreadful persecution and actually QUITE THE OPPOSITE. I would suggest that what has happened in China is a foreshadowing of what will happen globally. If this "latter day church of great prosperity, power and authority" is anything like what we see in the "prosperity churches of the USA and Europe".......then God help us all.

For every one (?) verse that you can quote saying PLAINLY in CLEAR LANGUAGE that the falling away is a departure I'll give you ten that prove CLEARLY it's not.

In fact I doubt you can CLEARLY get one without obscure references and far-fetched "leaps in the dark".

I would encourage and even warn everyone that believes this sort of rubbish.....search the scriptures for yourself and DO NOT buy into things that sound good based on a few mis-interpretations of unclear scripture.

DiscipleHeLovesToo

Hi Dave!

Welcome back!

i'm not sure about the rapture doctrine either way, so i'd like to see the scripture you base your response on; will you share?  it'll help me see your point if i'm not dodging rocks though :)

btw - how's the family?



GLY!!!
Joh 17:3  And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

davemcclean

Quote from: DiscipleHeLovesToo on February 11, 2012, 11:48:36 am
Hi Dave!

Welcome back!

i'm not sure about the rapture doctrine either way, so i'd like to see the scripture you base your response on; will you share?  it'll help me see your point if i'm not dodging rocks though :)

btw - how's the family?



GLY!!!


Hi there,

thanks for the welcome :)

...family are all great thanks! I'll dig out the scriptures for you later and post them up if you want...:)

PS I don't know what the technical term is but I firmly believe that the "rapture" will be after the times of trouble....in other words the church will not have an "easy escape and a party up above whilst the world suffers"....

Hisgirl

Hi Dave!

How is your Daddy?  I'll bet your little girl is all like a teenager now, growing up so fast! 
"It's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it."  My Mama

davemcclean

Quote from: DiscipleHeLovesToo on February 11, 2012, 11:48:36 am
Hi Dave!

Welcome back!

i'm not sure about the rapture doctrine either way, so i'd like to see the scripture you base your response on; will you share?  it'll help me see your point if i'm not dodging rocks though :)

btw - how's the family?

GLY!!!



Ok there are dozens of references (literally) that I could give, but I'm kinda pushed for time plus it's not my desire to "convert" people to my view....people will believe what they want to believe. However here's just one I picked out of my head when I was watching TV a few mins ago :

Look at 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 and read it.

Now I'll summarise as I see it bearing in mind my following assumptions which I believe are obvious nevertheless I'll state them :

Assumption A : Paul was a christian.
Assumption B : The church he was writing to were in the main, christians as well.

(1) The Church are worried - there's a rumour circulating that Jesus has returned and they've been left behind
(2) Paul tells them not to worry because -
   (A) The rebellion has not happened
   (B) The Antichrist has not been revealed to the whole world

So my thoughts -

If I was Paul I'd have written back and said "Guys - wise up! Jesus hasn't returned because -

(1) YOU and I are still here, along with every other believer we know about. If Jesus HAD have come back most of us would have disappeared mysteriously and the rest that were left behind would have had no clue that it had happened!
(2) In addition if Jesus HAD have come back, none of us left behind would have been worried because the Holy Spirit would have left as well and since it's HIS job to lead men to thoughts about God, we would not have been prompted to worry about God or being left behind".
(3) We have all these promises about a powerful, victorious, amazing church that arises before Jesus returns but take it from me guys....there isn't one here at the moment! Look at how many letters I'm having to write to all the churches about heresy, drunks at communion, affairs, witchraft in the church, adultery and so on...the church is in a state!"

BUT PAUL DOESN'T SAY THIS....HE TELLS THEM THAT THE REBELLION AND ANTICHRIST HAVE NOT APPEARED AND THAT'S HOW THEY SHOULD KNOW JESUS HASN'T RETURNED.

Note that in the above statement there is the strong implication that the church will be present when the rebellion and the antichrist are "here".....sounds like the tribulation to me!

Secondly, if you look into the history of the church up until 150 years ago, they consistently believed that the church would go through the tribulation. The church only changed it's view 150 years ago when a prophecy was given in Port Glasgow by Margaret McDonald (false prophet), which was then taken up by the brethern and worked into their doctrine by Darby. This teaching was incorporated into the Scofield notes bible and from thence spread like wildfire and was then propogated by writers like Hal Lindsay. Why was it so popular? Because people like to believe that nothing bad is going to happen and find it easy to believe in a God who spirits them away from all harm. In short....it appeals to us!!!!

So...the weight of history points to the church in the tribulation.

Why am I harping on about the church in the tribulation? Because then read through all the other references to the "big trouble" in the bible including Matthew 24 (from memory), Revelations etc etc and YOU WONT FIND CLEAR STATEMENTS AND TEACHING ABOUT THIS AMAZING CHURCH. You will read about unbelievers being in terrible trouble and God's people BEING EVEN WORSE OFF because they are having to deal with the persecution that comes additionally from their faith.

....I can literally quote for hundreds of pages, but this is just a brief example hopefully showing how simple common sense makes for easy understanding....it's the teachers and theologians that make the bible difficult!

BEWARE. DO NOT BELIEVE WHAT A "TEACHER" TELLS YOU - YOU ARE TOLD TO SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES (NOT COMMENTARIES AND BEST SELLERS) FOR YOURSELF NOT SWALLOW WHAT YOU ARE FED.



davemcclean

Quote from: Hisgirl on February 11, 2012, 01:59:53 pm
Hi Dave!

How is your Daddy?  I'll bet your little girl is all like a teenager now, growing up so fast!


Hi there! Dad's great thanks he came through the treatments with excellent results and is now going strong as an 80 year old lol....and yep Sophie's 13 in May.....*sigh* not long to go now.....:)

DiscipleHeLovesToo

I'm glad your Dad received his healing from the Lord!  no one can tell me that praying in tongues and cursing sickness is ineffective - God is faithful to perform His promises!

back to the topic at hand, i tend to agree with you that the rapture doctrine is in error.

the scripture calls reborn believers victors, more than conquerors - rules and reigners - kings that He's King of - those who ALWAYS triumph through Christ!  i wonder if this has contributed to delaying the Lord's return - He's waiting for us to realize the power that has been made available to us, to believe Him fully, and to take control of this world through love for people and hatred for evil.  i expect the Lord to come - when the whole Body of Christ has finally got it's foot on the devil's neck.  we're getting closer, many Christians today are taking the power and authority given to the Body of Christ and using it according to the leading of the Holy Spirit - that's where miracles comes from. 

the tribulation will be horrible, not for those who rule in Christ, but for those who don't.

  Rev 1:4-6
(4) John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
(5) And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
(6) And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

  Rev 5:8-10
(8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
(9) And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
(10) And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

GLY!!!
Joh 17:3  And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

jiminpa

Quote from: DiscipleHeLovesToo on February 11, 2012, 05:16:52 pm
I'm glad your Dad received his healing from the Lord!  no one can tell me that praying in tongues and cursing sickness is ineffective - God is faithful to perform His promises!

back to the topic at hand, i tend to agree with you that the rapture doctrine is in error.

the scripture calls reborn believers victors, more than conquerors - rules and reigners - kings that He's King of - those who ALWAYS triumph through Christ!  i wonder if this has contributed to delaying the Lord's return - He's waiting for us to realize the power that has been made available to us, to believe Him fully, and to take control of this world through love for people and hatred for evil.  i expect the Lord to come - when the whole Body of Christ has finally got it's foot on the devil's neck.  we're getting closer, many Christians today are taking the power and authority given to the Body of Christ and using it according to the leading of the Holy Spirit - that's where miracles comes from. 

the tribulation will be horrible, not for those who rule in Christ, but for those who don't.

  Rev 1:4-6
(4) John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
(5) And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
(6) And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

  Rev 5:8-10
(8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
(9) And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
(10) And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

GLY!!!
...and I expect the Lord to return at the appointed time. 
I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.

davemcclean

Quote from: jiminpa on February 11, 2012, 07:23:54 pm
...and I expect the Lord to return at the appointed time.


Not sure what point if any you're making? No one said anything about Jesus NOT returning?  :banghead:

Renee

"the great falling away" is just that a falling away not a catching up bu a falling away. To fall away from something one would leave it in other words leaving the church and faith in God.
THE DEFINITION OF REVIVAL

1. Falling in love with Jesus all over again

2. Having the Joy of your salvation restored

davemcclean

Quote from: Renee on February 12, 2012, 02:00:03 pm
"the great falling away" is just that a falling away not a catching up bu a falling away. To fall away from something one would leave it in other words leaving the church and faith in God.


Exactly! Deliberate twisting of simple plain words to make it fit a cosy theology.....or roughly translated in my personal dictionary "utter crap"  :hugegrin:

jiminpa

Quote from: davemcclean on February 12, 2012, 05:17:47 am
Not sure what point if any you're making? No one said anything about Jesus NOT returning?  :banghead:
Nor did I deny anyone believing in Jesus's return.  I was pointing out that the day and the hour has been set from the beginning.  I'm not so sure it's about us. 
I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.

davemcclean

Quote from: jiminpa on February 12, 2012, 06:21:03 pm
Nor did I deny anyone believing in Jesus's return.  I was pointing out that the day and the hour has been set from the beginning.  I'm not so sure it's about us.


Sorry I'm still lost here....who has said it's about us? And when did anyone say that the day or hour has not been set? Unless of course you're referring to that other heresy that says Jesus can't come back until the bride "makes herself ready".