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November 17, 2019, 08:33:31 pm

The Regulative Principle.

Started by Tallen, August 29, 2011, 12:44:00 pm

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lovesblessing

In this thread I have seen nothing that is the gospel of God's grace, or Jesus.....just alot of argl-bargl about alot of man made rules and regulations!
No life, no joy..... only the ministry of death........condemnation......"you don't worship correctly according to my special beliefs, so you must be all wrong in your beliefs"....yada, yada, yada......phariseeism gone to seed.......blah!  Lots of noise and hot air, producing nothing of value.
Waste of time.....for someone who claims he doesn't have much time to spend, you sure seem able to spend alot making long useless posts here, Tallon...... :doh:
Faith is having a good opinion of God!


JohnDB

Tallen,
I agree with Lovesblessing.

And in the meantime I am so taken with your arguments to me I am speechless & have nothing to reply with.

But the day I darken the door of any calvinist church will be a cold day somewhere known for heat.

So trust me. You've won. I've seen the error of my ways of ever speaking to a calvinist.
I wanna die like grandpa, peacefully and in his sleep. Not like the passengers in his car...they were all screaming and panicking.

Tallen

Quote from: lovesblessing on August 31, 2011, 12:43:21 pm
In this thread I have seen nothing that is the gospel of God's grace, or Jesus.....just alot of argl-bargl about alot of man made rules and regulations!
No life, no joy..... only the ministry of death........condemnation......"you don't worship correctly according to my special beliefs, so you must be all wrong in your beliefs"....yada, yada, yada......phariseeism gone to seed.......blah!  Lots of noise and hot air, producing nothing of value.
Waste of time.....for someone who claims he doesn't have much time to spend, you sure seem able to spend alot making long useless posts here, Tallon...... :doh:


TYFYT
Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.  (Romans 8:7, KJV)

Tallen

Quote from: JohnDB on August 31, 2011, 01:02:02 pm
Tallen,
I agree with Lovesblessing.

And in the meantime I am so taken with your arguments to me I am speechless & have nothing to reply with.

But the day I darken the door of any calvinist church will be a cold day somewhere known for heat.

So trust me. You've won. I've seen the error of my ways of ever speaking to a calvinist.


TYFYT
Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.  (Romans 8:7, KJV)

Sarah

Is there another scripture that goes along with the one in Deut.?

Embraced by the loving arms of the Father....

Tallen

Quote from: Sarah on August 31, 2011, 02:04:06 pm
Is there another scripture that goes along with the one in Deut.?


Sure,

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. (Exod 20:4-6, KJV)

Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.But the LORD hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day. (Deut 4:15-20, KJV)

And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. (Matt 4:9-10, KJV)

But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Matt 15:9, KJV)

God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; (Acts 17:24-25, KJV)

Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. (Col 2:23, KJV)

This is a good start.  If you would like me to explain them I would be more than happy to.
Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.  (Romans 8:7, KJV)

Sarah

No explanation necessary, but thanks.

Titus 3
7[And He did it in order] that we might be justified by His grace (by His favor, wholly undeserved), [that we might be acknowledged and counted as conformed to the divine will in purpose, thought, and action], and that we might become heirs of eternal life according to [our] hope.
8This message is most trustworthy, and concerning these things I want you to insist steadfastly, so that those who have believed in (trusted in, relied on) God may be careful to apply themselves to honorable occupations and to doing good, for such things are [not only] excellent and right [in themselves], but [they are] good and profitable for the people. 9But avoid stupid and foolish controversies and genealogies and dissensions and wrangling about the Law, for they are unprofitable and futile.


I would like to know if anyone that is a member and uses flags, has a cross, etc. feels they are worshiping God the wrong way. 

I understand you feel strongly about this.  I disagree.  I don't think it's profitable for me to continue.  Sorry.
Embraced by the loving arms of the Father....

Tallen

Quote from: Sarah on August 31, 2011, 11:36:28 pmI would like to know if anyone that is a member and uses flags, has a cross, etc. feels they are worshiping God the wrong way.


I have given scripture to answer this.  It isn't up to how we feel, but the way YHWH has told us.

I understand if you don't continue.
Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.  (Romans 8:7, KJV)

jiminpa

Quote from: Tallen on August 31, 2011, 11:55:09 pm
I have given scripture to answer this.  It isn't up to how we feel, but the way YHWH has told us.

I understand if you don't continue.
One last post, since the only point of this topic is divisiveness for it's own sake. 

The scriptures you posted, when viewed in context, support that it is the worship of images as gods that is the problem.  Simply having art in a church or during worship is not only permissible, but God Himself commanded statues and inlays in His temple.   You are taking the teaching of fallible, and in some cases dishonest, humans and elevating them to the position of the scriptures.  This begs the question, "who is the idolater here?".

Since you haven't responded to questions about the purpose of this topic, and based on your admission to being a reformationist, (seems to be the most common trait), I can only assume that you are only here to sow strife.   Scripture admonishes believers to have nothing to do with those who sow strife, and I will now obey that command concerning you.
I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.

jiminpa

I know that I often disagree with everyone here on issues.  To my friends on this forum, do I come off the same on here?  This is a genuine question.  I am concerned about my own behavior now.   
I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.

pastorzzub

No, Jim, you don't not in the slightest.  I am making a big assumption that you count me among your online friends in this place, but your actions and attitudes are totally different from Tallen.

You are, like most of us in this place - including myself - someone who cares deeply about God's Word, but you have never been anything other than respectful and humble. 

To me the whole point of a debate about an issue is to learn more about God's Word.  Our culture, denomination, past history, family experiences, sins, holy acts, all define us in certain ways.  It may be that someone from a Baptist church or an Asian family or America rather than Britain, or who grew up in the 50s rather than the 80s has seen God and His Word from a point of view I haven't.  So, you discuss the Scripture, you put out your point of view and the evidence you have for it, and you point out holes in other people's points of view as they point out the holes in yours.

The end result is everyone learns more, everyone adjusts their view based on new knowledge, we all grow some, we all appreciate each other more, and iron sharpens iron.  It doesn't always work smoothly, people are human, we get upset, we get tired, we don't want to look at certain ideas.  However, we show grace and keep the process going because it benefits us.

Tallen on the other hand seems immune to learning from other people, unwilling to state his case, and sounds like a broken record (PM me and I'll explain what a record is JTM!).  In addition, if you point out a hole about his regulative principle or even ask a question simply to clarify information you are rewarded with an immediate personal attack on your motivations and wisdom.

Also, I am now convinced that Tallen is not being entirely honest.  They claim to love this regulatory principle and that it is the heart of the Reformation, yet initially were totally unaware it came from Calvin's pen and resisted the idea that he was quoting or defending Calvin.  If you held a principle that dearly, you know where it came from.  Also, the fact that they were unaware that most of the Reformation rejected that principle is either a sign that they do not know what they are talking about or are deliberately exalting this one principle.

The regulative principle is not Scripture.  It is used in churches not to promote Biblical worship and exalt Jesus, it is used to look down your noses at other churches that are not as pure as you because they use flags, electric guitars, dance, the theme song to the Flintstones, shoes, etc.  It is the worship of a Pharisee, talking a great game with hearts so far removed from Jesus.  We don't have flags in our church, not for theological reasons, but for practical ones - we are already so crammed into our building there isn't room to swing a cat, let alone a flag (though as soon as we get a bigger building, cat swinging will be incorporated into our worship!!!).  But at a conference last week there were flags.  My 5 year old daughter wanted to worship with a flag, so I took her to the back of the church so it was not for show and she waved that flag to the Lord with all her might and it was awesome to watch.

The regulative principle was penned by a man, Calvin, who didn't have hymns, did not have instruments and instructed the clergy to wear all black.  He didn't talk about going to church, but going to sermon.  Now I admire his passion for the preached word, and agree with Luther that if church doesn't involve the preached Word it isn't church, but church is so much more than the preached Word.  Read Acts 2.42, they devoted themselves to doctrine and fellowship, prayer and breaking of bread.

Calvin did not know what true worship was.  How could he when he saw God as responsible for every disaster that happened, every deformed child, every murder, every robbery, every rape?  I know a Calvinist in my city has gone on record saying God caused the London riots, God burned the buildings, God did it all.  How can you have freedom in worship if that is what you are worshipping?  A God that picked people to go to heaven and hell with no respect to their free will and their decisions.  A God that forces people into heaven, a God that sent His Son to only die for a tiny percentage of the world.

How could you possibly have true worship in Spirit and truth when your gospel is not good news.  When you God is a monster and your life is that of a marionette?

No the regulative principle is the fruits of a bad root system.

On the other hand, there are principles actually found in the Bible that cover worship:

1. John 4.24. God wants us to worship in Spirit and Truth.  Did you know that following the new birth you are completely righteous in your spirit?  That your born again spirit is 100% right with God.  All of your worship should be on the basis of you being righteous.  That God is your Father, you are His Son and in His eyes you have done nothing wrong ever - totally justified, totally at peace with God.  Any worship that involves focus on sins or the sin nature is 100% unbiblical.  True worship has no fear, no sense of inferiority, no shame and no guilt.  Any form of worship that places them on Christians is fake.

2. 1 Cor 14.15 says: Well then, what shall I do? I will pray in the spirit, and I will also pray in words I understand. I will sing in the spirit, and I will also sing in words I understand.  The Bible is clear on this point: true worship involves tongues.  Any church that claims to have a Biblical pattern of worship but forbids the speaking in tongues is unbiblical and against the New Covenant.  Worshipping in tongues and singing in tongues is a part of Bible based worship.  Acts 2 and Acts 10 both show scenes of the church praising God and worshipping Him using tongues.

3. Worship involves freedom.  The Bible says where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom.  Principles and rules added to the word detract from the freedom we have in Christ.  Rather than worship God, people are looking to the rules to ensure they are right with the rule, then they look to other people who don't keep the rule and criticise them to make them feel better.  It is all about reputation and show, and zero to do with true Biblical worship.  True worship is a human knowing that they are right with God because of what Jesus has done and thanking God for that and making melody in their hearts before the Lord.

I once was part of a church that claimed to hold the regulative principle.  One Sunday I was a little excited about all God had done for me and was raising my hands (Biblical!) and clapping (also Biblical!).  One of the deacons told me off.  I told him off for knowing that God had 100% redeemed him and standing there like an ironing board.  I don't think he expected that reaction, because in churches similar to that people are used to using these principles as ways of making people feel guilty for demonstrating their love for God.  I wasn't about to be manipulated by guilt for loving my Father.

He told me that he just didn't worship like that and that he wasn't a demonstrative person.  Two weeks later I had to visit this deacon to pick up some files for Sunday School.  I went to his house and the football was on, and I found this non-demonstrative person screaming, jumping and yelling in front of his TV and he couldn't even stop to get the files his daughter had to.  He could demonstrate, He just loved football a lot more than he loved Jesus.

Waving a flag to Jesus isn't idolatry.  This is where the regulative principle is so inconsistent, and proves to me it has zero to do with Scripture and everything to do with keeping people in religious bondage.  Flags are all over the Bible.  I could quote 5 Scriptures right now that command people to raise flags without even thinking.  Yet, apparently flags are wrong, but black dresses for the vicar are right.  Electric guitars are wrong, drums are normally wrong, but organs are right (though some who hold to the regulative principle are against organs, again because it is not Scripture, it is a justification for personal opinion).  I would say an electric guitar is far more similar to the instruments of David's day and Jesus' day than the organ.  But the regulative principle is bound by religion and religion has to do what it has always done and won't be changed by evidence or the Word of God.

4. True Worship involves variety.  The Lord, who makes every snowflake different, every leaf on every tree different has made every human different.  He loves variety and He loves variety in worship.  Eph. 5.18-20 tells us to be filled with the Spirit and speak to one another in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs.  We now have churches across the world that are psalm churches, hymn churches and spiritual song churches all thinking they alone have the pure worship.  No, God wants it all!  Last Sunday, we had some old hymns, new songs, the Flintstones Song, declarations made from the Word, a message in tongues and interpretation.  We had the lot.  Why?  Because we were following the Spirit and the Spirit loves diversity.  Another church might have done it totally different and been led totally different and as long at it was in the Spirit and in love, then that would be awesome too because God loves variety.  This attempt to impose uniformity in worship is utterly opposed to the nature of God as revealed in Scripture.

5. Worship must be truthful (John 4.24).  What is truth?  God's Word.  Here's a thought - churches that only sing Psalms don't always sing truth in church.  Because a lot of the Psalms are penned from an Old Testament point of view.  We are New Testament believers.  Psalm 51 says "Don't take thy Holy Spirit from me" which is a great prayer if you lived in the Old Covenant.  In the New Covenant it is meaningless because God said "I will never, never, never leave you or forsake you".  Another Psalmist said He rejoiced to go to the house of the Lord.  In the Old you had to go to the temple, now we ARE the temple.  Another Psalmist rejoiced in babies' heads being smashed in.  Not part of the New Covenant, praise God.  Songs must reflect the reality of the New Covenant.

I could go on.  I could talk about the essential fact that worship must involve movement, or that worship is so much more than what happens for one hour on a Sunday.  However, I said all that to say two things, in response to Sarah's comment and to Jim:

@Sarah, up until now I was simply trying to find out what Tallen believed.  You made me think that there could be people on this forum lurking reading this and being confused and upset about their worship and start to feel bad during their worship times.  That is why I have shown Biblically that the regulative principle has zero to do with the Bible and what true worship is.  Thanks for the thought.

@Jim, the purpose of the regulative principle is that it beyond the Bible and actually stops people enjoying Biblical worship.  I know you and I have disagreed on what the Bible has said but we have never brought into a piece of extra Biblical revelation and insisted the church follow it.  Stay around Jim and don't change who you are, I have learned a lot from you.

Blessings all,
Ben


jiminpa

Thanks Ben.  Yes you are a friend.  I know enough about self-perspective not to completely trust it, so I needed to ask.  Since you tell me that I sharpen you as much as you sharpen me, I am satisfied.  Again, thank you. 
I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.

he4rty

This will most probably be my only reply in this thread, but as I read through the posts, this is what comes to mind.

Recently just been to faith camp and the main guy who runs it was a key revivalist back in the 70's and used to go round preaching rivival. Now during camp he shared with us some of the stories of his travels, but the one that sticks in my mind was the story about the trip to Wales where the welsh revival took place.

He spoke about how they had been there a couple of days already and the healings and people being saved, delivered was just non exsitant yet from other meetings from around the country they had come to expect miracles and a lot of them, so they couldn't understand why nothing was happening here. After much prayer before the final evening, the break through came when God layed upon his heart that the people had been left with the legalistic side of the revival and not the grace, after repentance, God could move.

I can relate to this story as I was brought up Methodist and yet I read stories of John Wesley and often wondered what happened to the Methodist church.

This is how I see this thread that a great move of God has all but been forgotton apart from the legalistic elements.

Tallen

Quote from: pastorzzub on September 01, 2011, 03:23:58 amAlso, I am now convinced that Tallen is not being entirely honest.  They claim to love this regulatory principle and that it is the heart of the Reformation, yet initially were totally unaware it came from Calvin's pen and resisted the idea that he was quoting or defending Calvin.  If you held a principle that dearly, you know where it came from.  Also, the fact that they were unaware that most of the Reformation rejected that principle is either a sign that they do not know what they are talking about or are deliberately exalting this one principle.


Let's be honest here, Ben, since you accuse me otherwise.  I'm still unaware that the Regulative Prinicple (Sola Scriptura applied) originated from the pen of Calvin and that the Reformation rejected the idea, Ben.  Dispite the assertions otherwise.  In fact, it is found in the First Helvetic Confession which Calvin had nothing to do with.  It was written by Heinrich Bullinger, Leo Jud of Zürich, Kaspar Megander of Bern, Oswald Myconius, Simon Grynaeus of Basel, Martin Bucer, and others.  What we can discover historically is that Calvin areed with this Confession.  But it never originated from his pen.

Art. 1. Scripture. The Canonical Scripture, being the Word of God, and delivered by the Holy Ghost, and published to the world by the prophets and apostles, being of all others the most perfect and ancient philosophy, doth perfectly contain all piety and good ordering of life. First Helvetic Confession (1536)
Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.  (Romans 8:7, KJV)

pastorzzub

You read your principle into that sentence as well as into the world!

Tallen

Quote from: pastorzzub on September 06, 2011, 02:44:57 pmYou read your principle into that sentence as well as into the world!


Another unsubstanciated accusation.  But thanks for the comment.
Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.  (Romans 8:7, KJV)

JTM³

Hey Tallen, thanks for bumping.


Now I get to post this :tt2::





[spoiler]

Job got HEALED, and YOU can be too!!

Pro tip: Read to the END of the book. Not just man's ideas. They're usually wrong. =P

Jesus = The revealed will of God for all people for all time.
[/spoiler]

pastorzzub

Quote from: Tallen on September 06, 2011, 02:48:55 pm
Another unsubstanciated accusation.  But thanks for the comment.



What I said was neither unsubstantiated (or unsubstanciated) or an accusation.

But apart from those two minor things, your assessment of my comment is 100% accurate.

pastorzzub

Quote from: JTM³ on September 06, 2011, 05:50:50 pm
Hey Tallen, thanks for bumping.


Now I get to post this :tt2::





And best of all, I have a Scripture.

Ephesians 6 in the NIV talks about FLAMING MISSILES...

JTM³




[spoiler]

Job got HEALED, and YOU can be too!!

Pro tip: Read to the END of the book. Not just man's ideas. They're usually wrong. =P

Jesus = The revealed will of God for all people for all time.
[/spoiler]