In the Hands of an angry God???

Started by Rachel Faith, June 17, 2011, 10:29:02 pm

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pastorzzub

Pete,

Firstly, great post.  It is so accurate that everything has to go back to the Word made flesh, Jesus.

Secondly, my understanding on why the devil is only mentioned 6 times in the old covenant (and 3 of those are in Job) is because there is little point as there was nothing people could do about him as an unreborn person is under the devil.  Obviously in the New Covenant, the devil is under our feet and if we resist him he flees from us so it makes sense to explain how to deal with him.

This is why for example God commands Joshua to wipe out the Canaanites, it was the only way to deal with the devils inside them.

Today, we don't murder the people we cast out the devil and set them free.  God didn't want to destroy Sodom and Gomorah, He wanted to work miracles there, prove His love and see them enjoy His goodness.

Renee

David prayed take not your Holy Spirit from me because of His limited understanding at that time.
THE DEFINITION OF REVIVAL

1. Falling in love with Jesus all over again

2. Having the Joy of your salvation restored

Renee

My friends God is more complex than our limited earthly view of Him and to declare Him to be what we view Him on earth is taking away from Him alot.
THE DEFINITION OF REVIVAL

1. Falling in love with Jesus all over again

2. Having the Joy of your salvation restored

Rachel Faith

REnee, that's why I thank Him that I don't HAVE to understand it all. I just have to trust Him and that He knows what He is doing. I'm not a bible scholar. I went to bible college and lost confidence in God. My faith may be simple. But He sustains me. I may sound foolish when I say what I do...but that is how He has revealed Himself to me. He is the same...forever. But now Jesus changed the rules. God isn't mad at me because of Jesus. Not because He has changed.
Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Peter 4:8

Renee

Sunshyne you don't sound foolish at all. And that is my point He has not changed. According to alot that I am reading and not from you is claiming that He has changed. Such as claiming that the OT is not a true picture of God. and claiming that the OT is obsolete. All that is wrong and not at all biblical that is in a round about way claiming that God has changed when in reality some are looking at Him through their flesh tinted glasses and trying explain away His complexities. The God of the OT and the God of the NT is the same God.
THE DEFINITION OF REVIVAL

1. Falling in love with Jesus all over again

2. Having the Joy of your salvation restored

Sarah

Quote from: Renee on June 28, 2011, 01:42:30 pm
Sunshyne you don't sound foolish at all. And that is my point He has not changed. According to alot that I am reading and not from you is claiming that He has changed. Such as claiming that the OT is not a true picture of God. and claiming that the OT is obsolete. All that is wrong and not at all biblical that is in a round about way claiming that God has changed when in reality some are looking at Him through their flesh tinted glasses and trying explain away His complexities. The God of the OT and the God of the NT is the same God.


The difference between the OT and the NT is Jesus.  OT = God sees us as we are, NT = God sees us through the Blood of Christ.  With that one life everything changed. 

There are so many thing in the OT that bring revelation and deeper understanding.  No contest.  How we see and and are seen has changed.  I don't know any Christian, any family or friends, that thinks that the OT is obsolete.  That would be limiting Him and I don't think that's the case here.
Embraced by the loving arms of the Father....

jiminpa

Quote from: Sarah on June 28, 2011, 02:17:00 pm
The difference between the OT and the NT is Jesus.  OT = God sees us as we are, NT = God sees us through the Blood of Christ.  With that one life everything changed. 

There are so many thing in the OT that bring revelation and deeper understanding.  No contest.  How we see and and are seen has changed.  I don't know any Christian, any family or friends, that thinks that the OT is obsolete.  That would be limiting Him and I don't think that's the case here.
But Jesus has always been.  The deeper understanding adds to the older understanding.  It doesn't annihilate it.  I see the same character of God in the OT that is in the NT.  Much of what Jesus taught was to correct a distorted view of what was the only scripture written at the time.  Jesus did not violate any of the law, but the pharisees thought he did, because they had added so much "oral Torah" to it that the true scriptures were meaningless to them.  Everything Jesus taught was already in the OT.  If Paul was so opposed to the OT why, after his conversion, did he take a nazarite vow, and escort others to the temple to fulfill theirs?
I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.

Pete

Quote from: jiminpa on June 28, 2011, 03:30:13 pm
But Jesus has always been.


The Word has always been; In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

But it was not until the babe was born in a manger that the Word was made flesh to dwell among us.

Quote from: jiminpa on June 28, 2011, 03:30:13 pm
Much of what Jesus taught was to correct a distorted view of what was the only scripture written at the time.  Jesus did not violate any of the law, but the pharisees thought he did, because they had added so much "oral Torah" to it that the true scriptures were meaningless to them.


Why didn't Jesus suggest that they should stone the woman caught in adultery when they brought her to Him?  Wasn't that the law commanded by Moses?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
John 8:3-8 (NIV)
The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Quote from: jiminpa on June 28, 2011, 03:30:13 pm
Everything Jesus taught was already in the OT.  If Paul was so opposed to the OT why, after his conversion, did he take a nazarite vow, and escort others to the temple to fulfill theirs?


I don't see anyone "opposed to the OT".  I see people with differing understandings and beliefs of the OT, but I don't see anyone "opposed" to it.

O0
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

pastorzzub

The Old Testament is written for our admonition (1 Cor. 10).  It was written for us, but it wasn't written to us.

It's like reading a letter Pete wrote to JTM.  It can show me things about Pete, it can help me understand Pete better, but I am not bound by the conditions and rules on that letter at all.

If everyone here is all for keeping the Old Testament, I have 4 questions (it could be 400, to be fair):

1. Do you ever eat pork or shellfish?
2. Do you ever wear clothes of mixed fibres?
3. Do you sacrifice your animals length wise or width wise when you cut them in half?
4. Do you stone your children to death for answering you back?

Thanks,
Ben

pastorzzub

Relevant video: http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=76LYPNNX

Did I mention he is preaching for us in August!!!

DiscipleWhomJesusLoves

Quote from: Renee on June 28, 2011, 12:47:57 pm
David prayed take not your Holy Spirit from me because of His limited understanding at that time.


In the old covenant, the Holy Spirit does leave you when you disobey God. Saul is an example. The Holy Spirit also left the temple at one time becos of Israel's disobedience. But He left ever so slowly, reluctantly--lingering at the temple top, then on the Mount of Olives, then finally departing.

So David wasn't making a mistake.

But we would be making a mistake today if we prayed what David prayed becos in the new covenant, thanks to Jesus, He will never (strong double-negative in the Greek) leave us nor forsake us. :)

JohnDB

When the Israelites came out of Captivity in Egypt you have to understand who they were as a people and the mindset of that area that they lived in.

These Jews/Hebrews were only recently slaves. Slaves who weren't given clothing to wear.

Men wore penis sheaths and women only small aprons covering their primary sex organs...no backside to either.

They made mud bricks, beer, and whatever else that they were told to do.

Soooo

God gave them all kinds of instructions on how to do everything from wearing clothing (including underwear) to how to behave themselves.

And like those from the "other side of the tracks" they only were used to harsh treatments...words of kindness and sophistication really didn't resonate with them.

Most of them had to learn the hard way in their wonderings of the desert for forty years. They weren't ready to approach the God who is Holy, Holy, Holy.... They learned to do as Moses and Aaron said, Which was written in the Torah, or else they died.

A very aggressive learning curve was necessary.  But in Forty years they were the most disciplined people around. So much so that when they instituted the first new holy kingdom by sacrificing Jericho to God. (why everything had to be destroyed including women, children, gold and livestock...it was given irrevocably to God) you had only one guy break the rules.
You simply can't get any army out there today to do the same thing. Soldiers are very loathe to kill innocents.

Which brings up Akin. He is the guy who took the wedge of Gold and some robes and hid them. And all of Israel stoned him while he and his family stood there and took it.

He knew what he had done.

He had brought sin into the HOLY NATION that had just been created. He was the first. He ruined something God had just made and that was holy. It now had a stain of sin in the nation and he was the one to do it.

Holy is a very powerful thing...not something to be treated so commonly...and Akin knew that too.

Fast forward to Annanias and Saphiras

They did the same thing as Akin had done. They introduced sin into the new Kindom that was Holy and created by God.

Mind you now that this is only the first level of Holy...not Holy, Holy...and definitely not HOLY, HOLY, HOLY.

Levites could only attain most of the Second Level of HOLY HOLY for a few weeks at a time. And it took weeks and years of preparation to do that....never mind the preparation for Atonement day to place the sins upon the Mercy seat of the Ark in the HOLY OF HOLIES.

Soooo....

When yawl discuss Annanias and Saphiras and say that God killed them....NOPE.
They killed themselves. They had lived the Old Covenant...they definitely knew better. And Just like the guy who put his hand on the Ark of the covenant to steady it as it was travelling on the Cart pulled by Oxen....They died. They thought that they could get away with stuff due to a version of what we call today "cheap grace".

Holiness is nothing to really play with....just like explosives it needs to be treated with a healthy dose of respect.

And they were actually going to be fine...till they lied and took what belonged to God.
God warns us for our own protection...ignoring that warning is not a good idea at all.
I wanna die like grandpa, peacefully and in his sleep. Not like the passengers in his car...they were all screaming and panicking.

Rachel Faith

I CAN'T keep the OT law. That's why I need Jesus! I wouldn't even know where to start to even attempt to KEEP the old covenant either.
Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Peter 4:8

Renee

I'm not talken bout keeping old covenant law I'm talken not throwing the Old Testament out the door. There are things in the OT still yet to come not only if one would look they will Jesus in it. A lot of wonderful teachings come from the OT. Let me see in the words of Pete throwing out the OT, NOT THE LAW is like throwing out the baby with the bathwater
THE DEFINITION OF REVIVAL

1. Falling in love with Jesus all over again

2. Having the Joy of your salvation restored

Pete

Quote from: Renee on June 29, 2011, 10:34:54 am
I'm not talken bout keeping old covenant law I'm talken not throwing the Old Testament out the door. There are things in the OT still yet to come not only if one would look they will Jesus in it. A lot of wonderful teachings come from the OT. Let me see in the words of Pete throwing out the OT, NOT THE LAW is like throwing out the baby with the bathwater


Please allow me to repeat; NO ONE is suggesting that we should throw out the OT.  To continue to suggest such a thing is to ignore what people have actually said.

It's clear from the posts in this thread that each of us have different interpretations and understandings of the OT and its application to our lives today, but it is not at all conducive to the discussion in this thread to continue to suggest that people are saying that we want to toss out the OT when NO ONE is suggesting anything of the sort.

O0
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

jiminpa

Quote from: Pete on June 29, 2011, 10:43:51 am
Please allow me to repeat; NO ONE is suggesting that we should throw out the OT.  To continue to suggest such a thing is to ignore what people have actually said.

It's clear from the posts in this thread that each of us have different interpretations and understandings of the OT and its application to our lives today, but it is not at all conducive to the discussion in this thread to continue to suggest that people are saying that we want to toss out the OT when NO ONE is suggesting anything of the sort.

O0
Is there a practical difference between saying that it doesn't apply to us, and throwing it out?  I'm not being augmentative.  I'm just clarifying why I agree with Renee, that "throwing out the OT" is an accurate description. 

Is this thread officially derailed now? 
I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.

Pete

Quote from: jiminpa on June 29, 2011, 10:53:11 am
Is there a practical difference between saying that it doesn't apply to us, and throwing it out?  I'm not being augmentative.  I'm just clarifying why I agree with Renee, that "throwing out the OT" is an accurate description.


But Jim, if you'll read the extremely lengthy posts in this thread, it's not nearly as simple and straightforward as that.  It makes it remarkably difficult, for me anyway, to have the desire to even continue to discuss this topic when everything I'm posting is summarily dismissed as "throwing out the OT".  So there seems little sense in discussing it any further if people have already determined that I am tossing out the OT.

Quote from: jiminpa on June 29, 2011, 10:53:11 am
Is this thread officially derailed now?


Derailing happens.  We'll get back on track at the next switching station.  :P

O0
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

Renee

well I guess we are seeing things differently Pete because I have seen on this thread what looks like people dismissing the OT. I'm out.
THE DEFINITION OF REVIVAL

1. Falling in love with Jesus all over again

2. Having the Joy of your salvation restored

pastorzzub

But Jim, surely you don't apply it all to yourself today?  What is the difference between your eating of pork and failure to stone teenagers to death?  Surely that then, by your own criteria, is throwing the Old Testament out.

I have no problems with the phrase throwing the Old Covenant out as long as we mean the Covenant and not the books!  I didn't throw the Old Covenant out, I didn't rip the veil in two, God did.

Supplanter

Yes, to throw it out means to me that we've figuratively taken our Bibles and razored out all the OT passages and burned them in the trash. When we say that it doesn't apply,  I think we for the most are expressing that we are under a New Covenant as opposed the Covenant that the OT represents. It doesn't mean we fail to gain important insights from the OT or that we don't honor it as God's Holy Word, but we do have to take all of scripture into account and there is the rub. We interpret scriptures and how they work together differently. As I ssem to be using this as a catch phrase, we are trying to polarize the issue to make it easier for us to handle, but the truth is that we all fall somewhere in the middle, some closer to one pole than the other but still not completely in black and white areas because we do read the New Testament and Old Testament in light of one another, we just differ on how they fit together.