• Welcome, Guest. Please login.
November 17, 2019, 08:33:49 pm

In the Hands of an angry God???

Started by Rachel Faith, June 17, 2011, 10:29:02 pm

Previous topic - Next topic

DiscipleWhomJesusLoves

Quote from: jiminpa on June 21, 2011, 07:46:29 am
I'm sorry, but I will use all of the scriptures...


Not all scriptures are written to and for the church. We can certainly learn things from "all scriptures", but not all scriptures are for the church to obey and follow.

For e.g., we don't read Leviticus and then start to obey it by offering animal sacrifices to God, but we can learn truths about Jesus' sacrifice from those verses because they are really all about Jesus, the true Lamb of God, and His finished work at the cross.

Even Jesus knew how to rightly divide the Word--He did not use the law of an eye for an eye. You also need to understand that Jesus came in the time of law, but was beginning to introduce grace, so there was a transitioning period.

Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever, yes. But the question is what is He like or who is He? Is He a God of wrath or love? Is He someone who give sicknesses in the old but then heals all diseases in the new? Which is He?

Those who understand the new covenant and live by the new covenant will know that He truly is the same yesterday, today and forever from Gen to Rev becos they know how to interpret scriptures thru the lens of the cross and see the grace and work of Christ hidden in the old.

But those who mix old cov scriptures with new cov ones are the ones who actually do not understand this verse.

How can they? They see an angry and judgmental God in the old, but a loving God of grace in the new, and yet they flippantly say He is the same, in order to justify their mixture of law and grace, and force a reconciliation of opposing covenants. They are contradicting themselves when they quote this verse.

Yitzchak

Quote from: Rachel Faith on June 20, 2011, 07:24:46 pm
I can (and do) admit that I don't know everything. I am by no means done learning. And Yitz...I do apologize for being sarcastic and offending you. It's not one of my better traits. But this discussion is interesting to watch as it develops. So I do thank everyone for posting.


  Apology accepted. I am sorry I overreacted to it.
To know him and to make him known

Yitzchak

Quote from: DiscipleWhomJesusLoves on June 21, 2011, 10:28:35 am
Not all scriptures are written to and for the church. We can certainly learn things from "all scriptures", but not all scriptures are for the church to obey and follow.

For e.g., we don't read Leviticus and then start to obey it by offering animal sacrifices to God, but we can learn truths about Jesus' sacrifice from those verses because they are really all about Jesus, the true Lamb of God, and His finished work at the cross.

Even Jesus knew how to rightly divide the Word--He did not use the law of an eye for an eye. You also need to understand that Jesus came in the time of law, but was beginning to introduce grace, so there was a transitioning period.

Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever, yes. But the question is what is He like or who is He? Is He a God of wrath or love? Is He someone who give sicknesses in the old but then heals all diseases in the new? Which is He?


  Actually , not all the scriptures were there for the Jews to obey either. Some parts of the law only applied to the Levites. Some were written to just women or to just men.

     This issue does not stop with just the Old Testament though. A letter that the apostle Paul wrote to the church at Galatians would have very little to do with me. It might be some interesting reading , but why should I feel bound by what Paul wrote to people who lived 1900 years ago in a vastly different situation than mine ? The fact that it is scripture is what makes the difference.....I think a lot of Christians miss this point when reading the Old Testament. They forget that God inspired those words as scripture. Which means that God felt those words were meaningful for all time as a part of his revelation of who he is.

   Which takes me back to my earlier post. If we fail to understand that the main purpose of the Old and New Testament is to reveal who God is. Then we miss the main point. It makes it impossible to follow the second part of the great commandment to love God , if we neglect the first part of the Commandment.
To know him and to make him known

Yitzchak

Quote from: DiscipleWhomJesusLoves on June 21, 2011, 02:38:29 am
If God says that all my sins are forgiven and remembered no more according to 2 passages in Hebrews, then what is He angry about when He's angry at me?

He can't be angry with me over my sins that have been forgiven and forgotten, right?

So if He gets angry with me over things that have nothing to do with sin, then wouldn't He be one petty God?



      I have been in the church for 28 years and I am certain that Christians sin. They do not stop sinning when they get converted. Here is a passage written to the Christian church at Rome. In it , fear is spoken of as a good thing. Why ? because that fear is contrasted with a high minded attitude that I am in and the Jews are out. That fear is supposed to lead us to make sure we stay in faith and do not slip into unbelief. In which case we will be the ones who are cut off. At least that is how I read it.

QuoteRom 11:20  Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21  For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.


   Now here is the question . Why would Paul write this to Christians if it were impossible for them to be cut off ? And why would he counsel them to fear ?

      My answer is God is the same God and if we read it in it's context  , Paul spends a couple chapters developing the point that God is both mercy and justice. The point is developed that even though Israel had a covenant given by God , they fell. And even though Christians have a covenant given by God , they can fall too.

   I am not saying that we accidently fall away. But it is possible to fall away from grace.




To know him and to make him known

Yitzchak

Quote from: Pete on June 20, 2011, 04:02:12 pm

The passage in Acts with Ananias and Sapphira is a perplexing one.  It seems out of character for a God who is described as BEING Love that He would KILL two people because of their greed.  So for better or worse, right or wrong, this is what I believe concerning Ananias and Sapphira...

First, I think it's important to note that the account in Acts is merely a record of events that occurred with Ananias and Sapphira.  Scripture neither condones nor condemns what Peter said, but rather simply reports what he said and what happened.

With that in mind, I think about this instance with the disciples and Jesus;

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Luke 9:53-56 (AMP)
But [the people] would not welcome or receive or accept Him, because His face was [set as if He was] going to Jerusalem. And when His disciples James and John observed this, they said, Lord, do You wish us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, even as Elijah did? But He turned and rebuked and severely censured them. He said, You do not know of what sort of spirit you are, For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them [from the penalty of eternal death]. And they journeyed on to another village.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

So I ask myself... is it possible that Peter forgot what sort of spirit he was, forgetting that the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them?

To quote Bugs Bunny, it's a distinct possibility.  ;)

O0



   It is very possible that peter would make such a mistake. The scripture records some of the mistakes of Peter and the other apostles. But in the context of the passage , it does not seem to be the focus or the lesson being set forth for us. Although it is possible.
To know him and to make him known

Yitzchak

      Here is another passage which speaks about fear and is in the context of God's people.


QuoteHeb 10:30  For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


 
To know him and to make him known

Rachel Faith

Quote from: Yitzchak on June 21, 2011, 10:57:12 am
  Apology accepted. I am sorry I overreacted to it.



:hug:   that wasn't overreacting by any means. I'm a redhead. And a woman. I think I have you beat on the "overreacting". ;) LOL
Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Peter 4:8

jiminpa

June 21, 2011, 02:22:36 pm #47 Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 05:14:26 pm by jiminpa
Quote from: DiscipleWhomJesusLoves on June 21, 2011, 10:28:35 am
Not all scriptures are written to and for the church. We can certainly learn things from "all scriptures", but not all scriptures are for the church to obey and follow.

For e.g., we don't read Leviticus and then start to obey it by offering animal sacrifices to God, but we can learn truths about Jesus' sacrifice from those verses because they are really all about Jesus, the true Lamb of God, and His finished work at the cross.

Even Jesus knew how to rightly divide the Word--He did not use the law of an eye for an eye. You also need to understand that Jesus came in the time of law, but was beginning to introduce grace, so there was a transitioning period.

Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever, yes. But the question is what is He like or who is He? Is He a God of wrath or love? Is He someone who give sicknesses in the old but then heals all diseases in the new? Which is He?

Those who understand the new covenant and live by the new covenant will know that He truly is the same yesterday, today and forever from Gen to Rev becos they know how to interpret scriptures thru the lens of the cross and see the grace and work of Christ hidden in the old.

But those who mix old cov scriptures with new cov ones are the ones who actually do not understand this verse.

How can they? They see an angry and judgmental God in the old, but a loving God of grace in the new, and yet they flippantly say He is the same, in order to justify their mixture of law and grace, and force a reconciliation of opposing covenants. They are contradicting themselves when they quote this verse.
I see a loving God of grace in the Old Testament, yet one who eventually pours out His wrath, just as He does in the NT.  God was every bit as merciful in the OT as He is now, it's just that from our perspective the cross happened in our past, rather than it being a foreshadowed future event.  It seems to me that the cross was available through its foreshadows before it happened in our chronology, but that is a different topic. 

What I don't understand is this schizo God the NT only people describe.  We don't get to cherry pick the verses we like.  The same God who came to us in one of our sukkas, (bodies), is the same God who will destroy His whole creation in wrath, under the New Covenant.  The God of the plagues IS the God of healing. 

Edit:
I want to add, but am concerned that the tone may be misread, that from my perspective it seems that viewing the cross as somehow changing God's character so that He was once the God of wrath, but now is the God of mercy is the perspective that filters out who God is.  God still is as He has always been merciful, but just, loving yet capable of wrath beyond our comprehension.  The God who created Satan and cursed mankind for the sin of one, has always been the God who came to us as the sacrifice He Himself required.  He has always been the God who atoned to Himself for our sins, and always been the God who required blood atonement.  The God of justice and wrath is the God of mercy and love, and has always been so.  The cross was the point in time that He put it into action.  We no longer need to sacrifice animals because the complete sacrifice has been made eternally for all.  That's what changed, and consequences of the sacrifice being in our past.  God is still God. 
I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.

DiscipleHeLovesToo

call it 'dannyology' because i know of no scripture to stand on for this, but i believe that Ananias and Sapphira actually died of shame (the harvest of pride) - they were overcome with the exposure of their self-deception to the point where they either had to die to self spiritually or die to self physically - sad to say they chose the latter; it wasn't Peter or God who was responsible for their deaths - they were responsible for their own deaths.

God was, is and will be angry at those who reject His goodness, love and mercy in favor of self-worship - i.e., the permanently lost - those who have already made the eternal decision to reject relationship with Him.  This is consistent in both the old and new covenants from my understanding.

However, to those who have or will humble themselves and come into fellowship with Him, the scriptures speak clearly:

  Luke 2:13-14 KJVR
(13) And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
(14) Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. (emphasis added)

good will and anger don't mix; God isn't angry at the living who have or will (and only He knows) come into fellowship with Him by claiming Jesus as their substitute - but the lake of fire is all the justification needed to understand that permanently rejecting God will draw His wrath.

GLY!!!

Joh 17:3  And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

DiscipleWhomJesusLoves

I don't think we can ever come to an agreement if we all study the Bible differently.

I believe strongly in rightly dividing the Word--what's old, what's new and how the cross made a big difference, and not mixing the old with the new.

Reminds me of how I used to debate with the RCs on CF.

One day, I realised that it was pointless  :banghead: becos we have different foundations or authorities. We go by the protestant Bible. They go by the RC Bible, tradition and what the Pope says.

DiscipleWhomJesusLoves

Quote from: DiscipleHeLovesToo on June 21, 2011, 07:10:54 pm
call it 'dannyology' because i know of no scripture to stand on for this, but i believe that Ananias and Sapphira actually died of shame (the harvest of pride) - they were overcome with the exposure of their self-deception to the point where they either had to die to self spiritually or die to self physically - sad to say they chose the latter; it wasn't Peter or God who was responsible for their deaths - they were responsible for their own deaths.

God was, is and will be angry at those who reject His goodness, love and mercy in favor of self-worship - i.e., the permanently lost - those who have already made the eternal decision to reject relationship with Him.  This is consistent in both the old and new covenants from my understanding.

However, to those who have or will humble themselves and come into fellowship with Him, the scriptures speak clearly:

  Luke 2:13-14 KJVR
(13) And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
(14) Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. (emphasis added)

good will and anger don't mix; God isn't angry at the living who have or will (and only He knows) come into fellowship with Him by claiming Jesus as their substitute - but the lake of fire is all the justification needed to understand that permanently rejecting God will draw His wrath.

GLY!!!


I believe they simply died of a heart attack, triggered by shock and fear of being found out. Did God cause it/kill them? NO.

I don't believe that God is angry with anyone today, even those who reject His gospel, simply because we are in the period of His pure grace (the acceptable year of the Lord's favor) becos of Jesus' sacrifice.

I believe that's the reason Jesus left out the last part in bold when He quoted Isa:

Luke 4:18-19
"The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord."
And the day of vengeance of our God;

The day will come when His wrath is poured out on those who reject Jesus, but I don't believe that we are in that "day of vengeance" now.


pastorzzub

Quote from: DiscipleWhomJesusLoves on June 22, 2011, 12:36:19 am
I don't think we can ever come to an agreement if we all study the Bible differently.

I believe strongly in rightly dividing the Word--what's old, what's new and how the cross made a big difference, and not mixing the old with the new.

Reminds me of how I used to debate with the RCs on CF.

One day, I realised that it was pointless  :banghead: becos we have different foundations or authorities. We go by the protestant Bible. They go by the RC Bible, tradition and what the Pope says.


If someone is going to mix the law with grace then they will never understand the Scriptures.  You are accurate in what you say: not all the Bible is to us.  It is all FOR us, but it is not all TO us.

Galatians is TO us.  It was written to born again, water baptised, tongue talking, church attending Christians.  If you are that, then Galatians is for you.  It's message that we operate in the power of the Spirit through faith and not legalism or the obsolete OT law is for us.

Now, I preach grace.  I preach the goodness of God.  I preach that God is not mad at the world, that He doesn't hold the sin of the world against it, and that Jesus is the express image of God.

So, I see miracles every Sunday.  Last week, we saw two men who were too short sighted to read text without glasses healed.  Every individual in our church who came on Sunday in pain left pain free.

That is a direct result of teaching the rightly divided word of truth.  If you preach legalism and mixture, you don't see miracles.  Jesus said that if you don't believe Him, believe because you see the miracles.  I make the same claim, and it works.  Because I know it is not based on how good I am, because I know no matter what I do or say, God is still madly in love with me.

Most people who name the name of Christ worship a god who to me resembles Zeus more than the Jesus of the Bible.  Jesus said if you have seen Him you HAVE SEEN the Father.  If you want to know what God is like, look at Jesus.

And yes, I know Jesus got angry.  But He didn't get angry at people, He got angry FOR people.  He was furious in Mark 3 because the religious Pharisees didn't give two hoots about his healing and health.  He hates religious systems that burden people, that misrepresent God's unconditional love and goodness.  He hates it when people tell Christians that if they don't pray/ fast/ live right that God is mad at them.  He hates this.  But He still loves the people who do it.  He still tenderly cares for them.  He still died for them interceding for their forgiveness.  He is LOVE. 

Jesus loves you.  He loves you just as you are.  He never stops loving you.  He has ALREADY provided righteousness, healing, peace, kindness, honour and glory to you and He will never take it back.  Anything you ask for in prayer, He will do.  Why? He loves you.

pastorzzub

PS I also believe Ananias and Sapphira just died.  I believe that they were not Christians (the Bible refers to him as a certain man, not a certain disciple, which was Luke's phrase for Christians).  I believe that they were trying to infiltrate the church and manipulate it for their own gain.

I believe that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus.  But if you reject the gift and sin in the atmosphere of glory in a functioning church then your wages will come. 

DiscipleHeLovesToo

would this be accurate?

if it bothers you, even a little bit, that God might be angry with you, then you can rest assured that He's NOT angry with you because you have not permanently rejected Him.

if you simply don't care a bit whether God might be angry with you, meditate on this:

  Revelation 20:15 KJVR
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

GLY!!!
Joh 17:3  And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

DiscipleHeLovesToo

Quote from: pastorzzub on June 22, 2011, 02:36:59 am
Now, I preach grace.  I preach the goodness of God.  I preach that God is not mad at the world, that He doesn't hold the sin of the world against it, and that Jesus is the express image of God.

So, I see miracles every Sunday.  Last week, we saw two men who were too short sighted to read text without glasses healed.  Every individual in our church who came on Sunday in pain left pain free.

That is a direct result of teaching the rightly divided word of truth.  If you preach legalism and mixture, you don't see miracles.  Jesus said that if you don't believe Him, believe because you see the miracles.  I make the same claim, and it works.  Because I know it is not based on how good I am, because I know no matter what I do or say, God is still madly in love with me.


AWESOME TESTIMONY BROTHER!!! 

YAAAAAA GOD!!!
Joh 17:3  And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Yitzchak

June 23, 2011, 07:16:43 am #55 Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 07:29:14 am by Yitzchak
Quote from: jiminpa on June 21, 2011, 02:22:36 pm
I see a loving God of grace in the Old Testament, yet one who eventually pours out His wrath, just as He does in the NT.  God was every bit as merciful in the OT as He is now, it's just that from our perspective the cross happened in our past, rather than it being a foreshadowed future event.  It seems to me that the cross was available through its foreshadows before it happened in our chronology, but that is a different topic. 

What I don't understand is this schizo God the NT only people describe.  We don't get to cherry pick the verses we like.  The same God who came to us in one of our sukkas, (bodies), is the same God who will destroy His whole creation in wrath, under the New Covenant.  The God of the plagues IS the God of healing. 

Edit:
I want to add, but am concerned that the tone may be misread, that from my perspective it seems that viewing the cross as somehow changing God's character so that He was once the God of wrath, but now is the God of mercy is the perspective that filters out who God is.  God still is as He has always been merciful, but just, loving yet capable of wrath beyond our comprehension.  The God who created Satan and cursed mankind for the sin of one, has always been the God who came to us as the sacrifice He Himself required.  He has always been the God who atoned to Himself for our sins, and always been the God who required blood atonement.  The God of justice and wrath is the God of mercy and love, and has always been so.  The cross was the point in time that He put it into action.  We no longer need to sacrifice animals because the complete sacrifice has been made eternally for all.  That's what changed, and consequences of the sacrifice being in our past.  God is still God.



   Some good points to think about. I think that this reading of the Old Testament as not applying to us is a legalistic reading. The thing that bothers me about it is it reminds me so much of dealing with my older brother who is orthodox Jewish. The entire scripture is about who God is. To read the Old Testament as a series of rules is a legalistic reading of it. This point seems to be missed when Christians dismiss the Old Testament as not applying to us. What they really mean is that the rules do not apply to us. Any school of thought that leads us to a place where we think God is pleased with us when we rebel against Him is false. It seems that some Christians today have simply inserted saying the sinner's prayer for circumcision. Perform the ritual and then move on with your life. Righteous living is not required in this legalistic view. Because they think that God's righteous requirements are just rules that should have never been made.

     This view that we are saved by saying a prayer back in 1972 and then living for the devil with no consequences is not scriptural. Not only that , it is the same exact mistake that the Pharisees made. Our walk with God is a daily walk of faith. This idea that all future sins are automatically forgiven is not supported by scripture. The scripture says if we confess our sins , he is faithful and just to forgive us. That implies repentance. If we choose to walk in sin after we have been saved , we make the Lord angry and eventually we will be cut off. The reason for that is God's anger is a part of who he is which does not change. For God not to do so would make God partial and not just.

     I actually feel quite strongly about it. I think a lot of people have missed the point of why the Jewish people backslid and incurred God's anger. Reading what people write , it seems that many think God is angry with the Jewish people because they are Jewish. They miss the main point. The Jews were accepted by God as His people. Their problem was not that they are Jewish. Their problem is not that God gave them the Old Testament. Their problem is unbelief and rebellion against God. When Christians choose unbelief and rebellion they get the same consequence that the Jews did . The scripture says so. This subtle anti Jewish thinking that has found it's way into the church is not the Gospel. It is pride and prejudice. The reference to the well known movie intended. It bugs me the way that many Christians misrepresent God's covenant with the Jews by taking a few passages out of context.

   The branches mentioned here are the Jewish people.

QuoteRom 11:18  Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19  Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20  Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21  For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off


   Anyway , religious people tend to be the same whether they are Jewish or Christian. It is one thing to walk in faith on a daily basis. It is another to trust in religious rituals to save us and think we can get by with a prayer and then live for the devil as though "in the name of Jesus" is some magic formula to ward off God's wrath. God judges sin. Always has and always will. Grace is there. But redefining grace to mean that Christians are exempt from obedience to God is religious pride.

    The issue is not really God's anger , as though we sit in a place to judge God's emotions. Let me put it this way....This idea that God is never angry and always pleased with Christians no matter what is saying that Christians can rape people , sexually molest Children , murder people , etc. and since they said a prayer back in 1972 , those sins are forgiven and they can just keep on living that way and God is pleased with them. That is not the God that the Bible reveals. There is enough grace to forgive even those horrible things , but it involves repentance. Without repentance , we are left with a que sera sera God who thinks that sin does not matter anymore. The Bible when speaking of sinful lifestyles says such were some of you , past tense.

     One other aspect of this is the lack of faith involved. To live in disobedience is to live in unbelief. The basic understanding of what Faith is crucial in order to have biblical faith. Faith is agreeing with God. It is impossible to have true faith and live contrary to God's will. Because once we begin to disagree with God , we are no longer in faith.

   It is biblical to believe God to be righteous. It is also biblical to find our righteousness in Jesus. But to live unrighteous and claim to be in faith is to contradict what James said about faith without works being dead faith. In case you missed it , dead faith is not true biblical faith. Living faith leads to repentance and obedience to God.

   A living faith leads to actions that agree with that faith.

QuoteJas 2:18  Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20  But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21  Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22  Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23  And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.


    Whenever we quote Galatians as the basis for our theology about saving faith , we need to remember that James and Hebrews define Abraham's faith. To read Galatians and conclude that Abraham's faith was a prayer and then he went out and did the opposite of what God said is wrong. To be the seed of Abraham means to have the same kind of faith that Abraham had. Which means according to Hebrews that we hold fast to that faith in the face of persecution. We are saved through faith. But faith is not a one time event. Faith is walked out and only those who continue in faith inherit the promises. That is scripture by the way.

   To say that someone prayed the sinner's prayer and now lives in sin os to say that they are not walking in faith. Faith brings forth fruit. Remember the paraable about those who gladly received the seed and then it was either choked out by the cares of this world or the people gave up when it got difficult and persecution came ? Although they started well , they had no fruit.

QuoteMar 4:13  And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
Mar 4:14  The sower soweth the word.
Mar 4:15  And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
Mar 4:16  And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
Mar 4:17  And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
Mar 4:18  And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
Mar 4:19  And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
Mar 4:20  And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.


  It is not only the ones that had the seed stolen immediately who were left barren. it is those who did not stay in faith and allow the word to run it's course and produce fruit. This is just as true with salvation as it is with healing or any other blessing. When people tell me that they said the sinner's prayer , I hear that seed has been planted and received. But many fall away. Telling those who are falling away that they should be at peace is false security. If we continue in faith , we will reap a harvest.

   I am not sure why word of faith people understand this concept when it comes to healing and then forget all about it when it comes to salvation. Because all the blessings of salvation and healing and prosperity are all obtained the same way. They all come through Jesus and we must remain in faith to receive. We don't say a prayer for healing back in 1972 and then speak and live the opposite the rest of our life and expect that healing prayer to be effective . Because we have undermined our own faith when we do that and will not receive even though God provided it for us. Is God no longer the healer if we choose to live in sickness ?  Salvation is more than just forgiveness of sins. We either take it all in faith or live in doubt.

   Hopefully no one on here is saying that they simply start out in a measure of faith with the sinner's prayer and then live in unbelief and expect that God will bless that. We must continue in faith if we want God to continue to be pleased with us.


QuoteHeb 10:35  Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
Heb 10:36  For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Heb 10:37  For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Heb 10:38  Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. Heb 10:39  But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
QuoteRom 1:16  For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17  For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.



   

   

       
To know him and to make him known

DiscipleHeLovesToo

religion teaches that God reacts to man; if man is in faith, God blesses him; if man is in unbelief, God allows the devil to steal, kill and destroy in man's life.  religion focuses on what God will do.

faith teaches that man reacts to God; if man is in faith, he receives the blessing that God has already poured out through grace before the foundations of the world were laid; if man is in unbelief, man allows the devil into his life to steal, kill and destroy the blessings that God has already given.  faith focuses on what God has done. 

to believe that God reacts to what man has done is perfect arrogance - it attempts to bring God down to man's level.  to believe that man reacts to what God has done is perfect humility - it brings man up to where God wants him to be.

true freedom can only come through realizing the truth that God is not the variable; man is.  this is almost too good to be true - because while man can never change God, man can allow God to change him - Gospel!

GLY!!!
Joh 17:3  And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Renee

I will continue to believe that God is not only gracious but Holy and Righteous cause if you take the Bible at face value He is. No amount of explaining it away will change my mind call it religious if you want so be it I will believe the word of God which still says He is Holy and righteous
THE DEFINITION OF REVIVAL

1. Falling in love with Jesus all over again

2. Having the Joy of your salvation restored

Renee

BTW just a thought the Bible says God is slow to anger not He don't get angry just sayen
THE DEFINITION OF REVIVAL

1. Falling in love with Jesus all over again

2. Having the Joy of your salvation restored

pastorzzub

Quote from: Yitzchak on June 23, 2011, 07:16:43 am

   Some good points to think about. I think that this reading of the Old Testament as not applying to us is a legalistic reading.


What do you mean by the Old Testament applying to us?  I believe it was written FOR us (as per Paul's comments on the Scripture being for our admonition in 1 Cor. 10), but it is not written to us.  I can eat a bacon roll without sinning, I can have a mole without being disqualified from God's presence, I don't have to keep a kosher kitchen or the Passover.  I don't need to sacrifice a goat when I sin.  I do not live under the Old Covenant at all.  A great deal of the New Testament (Galatians, Romans and Hebrews) is penned to teach us about this fact.

Quote
The thing that bothers me about it is it reminds me so much of dealing with my older brother who is orthodox Jewish. The entire scripture is about who God is. To read the Old Testament as a series of rules is a legalistic reading of it. This point seems to be missed when Christians dismiss the Old Testament as not applying to us. What they really mean is that the rules do not apply to us. Any school of thought that leads us to a place where we think God is pleased with us when we rebel against Him is false. It seems that some Christians today have simply inserted saying the sinner's prayer for circumcision. Perform the ritual and then move on with your life. Righteous living is not required in this legalistic view. Because they think that God's righteous requirements are just rules that should have never been made.


God is pleased with you.  You are His son.  He loves you.  He adores you.  You do not have to earn His love or favour in any way.  While you were still a rebel, He sent His Son to die a horrific death for you on the cross.  Righteous living is not required for God's love, God's favour or God's blessing.  Galatians tells us that miracles come NOT through obedience to the law.  The Holy Spirit does NOT come through obedience to the law, but by simple faith in the word.  People teaching that you have to do right to receive from God are teaching contrary to the New Covenant, and are mixing the old and the new.  Paul had a word for such people: foolish.

Quote
     This view that we are saved by saying a prayer back in 1972 and then living for the devil with no consequences is not scriptural.


There are consequences to sin.  If I smack someone in the mouth, it may affect our friendship.  If I rob a bank, there is a legal system.  If I commit adultery it will affect my wife, my children, my preaching, everything.  However, there are no consequences to my relationship with God because my relationship with God is not through works but through faith and love.  I cannot make God love me more, I cannot make God love me less.  God is for me, not against me.  God is on my side. 

Sin affects my social life, my sowing and my soul.  It doesn't affect my spirit or my sonship.


Quote
Not only that , it is the same exact mistake that the Pharisees made.


This statement is the exact opposite of truth.  The mistake the Pharisees made was not that you could live how you like and to suggest that is disingenuous to Scripture.  The mistake the Pharisees made was that favour with God could be earned rather than freely receive.  Their issues with Jesus were due to Him breaking their rules (e.g. sabbath, hand washing) and STILL BEING ABLE to operate in God's power.  The spirit of the Pharisees is legalism.  It is that you have to tithe to be blessed, you have to wash the outside of the cup, you have to do, do, do.  Jesus is love and uses even Judas to work miracles and heal the sick.  He chose a man who publically denied him to preach at His first revival meeting.

Quote
Our walk with God is a daily walk of faith. This idea that all future sins are automatically forgiven is not supported by scripture. The scripture says if we confess our sins , he is faithful and just to forgive us. That implies repentance. If we choose to walk in sin after we have been saved , we make the Lord angry and eventually we will be cut off. The reason for that is God's anger is a part of who he is which does not change. For God not to do so would make God partial and not just.


Go and study the word propitiation.  There is a whole dimension of what Jesus did on the cross you clearly know nothing about.  Of course the cross has dealt with future sins - every sin I ever committed was future on the cross.  Hebrews talks about eternal redemption.  1 John 1.9 is about fellowship with the Lord and renewing our mind, it is not talking about our reborn human spirit.  The moment you are born again your human spirit is made perfect, pure and righteous.  You are as righteous now as you will ever be.  Every sin you have ever committed is forgiven and paid for.  It is awesome.

Quote
     I actually feel quite strongly about it. I think a lot of people have missed the point of why the Jewish people backslid and incurred God's anger. Reading what people write , it seems that many think God is angry with the Jewish people because they are Jewish. They miss the main point. The Jews were accepted by God as His people. Their problem was not that they are Jewish. Their problem is not that God gave them the Old Testament. Their problem is unbelief and rebellion against God. When Christians choose unbelief and rebellion they get the same consequence that the Jews did . The scripture says so. This subtle anti Jewish thinking that has found it's way into the church is not the Gospel. It is pride and prejudice. The reference to the well known movie intended. It bugs me the way that many Christians misrepresent God's covenant with the Jews by taking a few passages out of context


The reason God dealt with them so harshly is because they had no redeemer.  They had no intercessor.  They had no new covenant.  They were not righteous, they were not in Christ.  They were under a harsh law, not under grace.  The law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.  When Christians choose unbelief and rebellion they absolutely DO NOT have the same consequences that the Jews did.  Jesus DID NOT stone the woman caught in adultery.  When James and John wanted to call down fire from heaven against the Samaritans in the same manner Elijah did, Jesus told them they didn't know what spirit they were of.  Things Joshua did under the command of God would be sinful in the new Covenant.  Jesus dying on the cross, taking the sin of the world changed EVERYTHING.  We can operate in the gifts, the temple veil is torn in two, we are in Christ.  God is on our side.  He wasn't on Joshua's side and told Joshua so, but He is on our side.

It is a better covenant, not the same covenant with different people.  The Old Covenant is do this and I will bless you.  The New Covenant is I AM BLESSED WITH EVERY BLESSING.

What you are teaching is legalism.  It is the message that Paul had to confront in Galatia and Rome and across Europe.  It is the same message I have to deal with in London, England.  It is obscuring the work of the cross and the true value of redemption.  You need to understand what Jesus did on the cross.

Quote
   Anyway , religious people tend to be the same whether they are Jewish or Christian. It is one thing to walk in faith on a daily basis. It is another to trust in religious rituals to save us and think we can get by with a prayer and then live for the devil as though "in the name of Jesus" is some magic formula to ward off God's wrath. God judges sin. Always has and always will. Grace is there. But redefining grace to mean that Christians are exempt from obedience to God is religious pride.


No, thinking you can make it with God based on performance is religious pride.  It is by grace not works so no one can boast.  To turn that Scriptural principle upside down to agree with your theology is proof that it is wrong.  God did judge sin - on the back of Jesus.  For God to judge that sin a second time would be illegal.  All my sin was dealt with on the cross.  I have peace with God right now and it has nothing to do with my actions, and everything to do with His actions by sending His son to pay the price for my sins.  Christianity is not a jump start so you can be forgiven and then go on in your own works.  It is a new birth, a new life, a life of love and grace.  A life that is not defined by works and what I do.  To say that people who believe this think that the name of Jesus is a magic word to stop God's anger proves you have zero idea of what actually happened on the cross. 

Spend some time reading Galatians, Hebrews and Romans.  It is never by works, never by obedience.  It is always by His grace, His love and His redemption.

Anyway, must go, I have to keep on sharing this message across the world!  The people I have seen healed when they find out that it doesn't matter how good they are.  The people I have seen who have been set free from the evils of legalism  means I have to keep preaching and teaching the truth.,  You need the truth, my friend.  You need to understand Paul's revelation.  I recommend a book called the War is Over from Andrew Wommack's ministry.  I will purcahse you a copy if you pm me your address.

Glory to God, freedom to man,
Benjamin