Started by Rachel Faith, June 17, 2011, 10:29:02 pm
Quote from: jiminpa on June 21, 2011, 07:46:29 amI'm sorry, but I will use all of the scriptures...
Quote from: Rachel Faith on June 20, 2011, 07:24:46 pmI can (and do) admit that I don't know everything. I am by no means done learning. And Yitz...I do apologize for being sarcastic and offending you. It's not one of my better traits. But this discussion is interesting to watch as it develops. So I do thank everyone for posting.
Quote from: DiscipleWhomJesusLoves on June 21, 2011, 10:28:35 amNot all scriptures are written to and for the church. We can certainly learn things from "all scriptures", but not all scriptures are for the church to obey and follow. For e.g., we don't read Leviticus and then start to obey it by offering animal sacrifices to God, but we can learn truths about Jesus' sacrifice from those verses because they are really all about Jesus, the true Lamb of God, and His finished work at the cross.Even Jesus knew how to rightly divide the Word--He did not use the law of an eye for an eye. You also need to understand that Jesus came in the time of law, but was beginning to introduce grace, so there was a transitioning period.Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever, yes. But the question is what is He like or who is He? Is He a God of wrath or love? Is He someone who give sicknesses in the old but then heals all diseases in the new? Which is He?
Quote from: DiscipleWhomJesusLoves on June 21, 2011, 02:38:29 amIf God says that all my sins are forgiven and remembered no more according to 2 passages in Hebrews, then what is He angry about when He's angry at me?He can't be angry with me over my sins that have been forgiven and forgotten, right? So if He gets angry with me over things that have nothing to do with sin, then wouldn't He be one petty God?
QuoteRom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Quote from: Pete on June 20, 2011, 04:02:12 pm The passage in Acts with Ananias and Sapphira is a perplexing one. It seems out of character for a God who is described as BEING Love that He would KILL two people because of their greed. So for better or worse, right or wrong, this is what I believe concerning Ananias and Sapphira... First, I think it's important to note that the account in Acts is merely a record of events that occurred with Ananias and Sapphira. Scripture neither condones nor condemns what Peter said, but rather simply reports what he said and what happened. With that in mind, I think about this instance with the disciples and Jesus; -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Luke 9:53-56 (AMP)But [the people] would not welcome or receive or accept Him, because His face was [set as if He was] going to Jerusalem. And when His disciples James and John observed this, they said, Lord, do You wish us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, even as Elijah did? But He turned and rebuked and severely censured them. He said, You do not know of what sort of spirit you are, For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them [from the penalty of eternal death]. And they journeyed on to another village.-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- So I ask myself... is it possible that Peter forgot what sort of spirit he was, forgetting that the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them? To quote Bugs Bunny, it's a distinct possibility.
QuoteHeb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Quote from: Yitzchak on June 21, 2011, 10:57:12 am Apology accepted. I am sorry I overreacted to it.
Quote from: DiscipleWhomJesusLoves on June 21, 2011, 10:28:35 amNot all scriptures are written to and for the church. We can certainly learn things from "all scriptures", but not all scriptures are for the church to obey and follow. For e.g., we don't read Leviticus and then start to obey it by offering animal sacrifices to God, but we can learn truths about Jesus' sacrifice from those verses because they are really all about Jesus, the true Lamb of God, and His finished work at the cross.Even Jesus knew how to rightly divide the Word--He did not use the law of an eye for an eye. You also need to understand that Jesus came in the time of law, but was beginning to introduce grace, so there was a transitioning period.Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever, yes. But the question is what is He like or who is He? Is He a God of wrath or love? Is He someone who give sicknesses in the old but then heals all diseases in the new? Which is He?Those who understand the new covenant and live by the new covenant will know that He truly is the same yesterday, today and forever from Gen to Rev becos they know how to interpret scriptures thru the lens of the cross and see the grace and work of Christ hidden in the old.But those who mix old cov scriptures with new cov ones are the ones who actually do not understand this verse.How can they? They see an angry and judgmental God in the old, but a loving God of grace in the new, and yet they flippantly say He is the same, in order to justify their mixture of law and grace, and force a reconciliation of opposing covenants. They are contradicting themselves when they quote this verse.
Quote from: DiscipleHeLovesToo on June 21, 2011, 07:10:54 pmcall it 'dannyology' because i know of no scripture to stand on for this, but i believe that Ananias and Sapphira actually died of shame (the harvest of pride) - they were overcome with the exposure of their self-deception to the point where they either had to die to self spiritually or die to self physically - sad to say they chose the latter; it wasn't Peter or God who was responsible for their deaths - they were responsible for their own deaths. God was, is and will be angry at those who reject His goodness, love and mercy in favor of self-worship - i.e., the permanently lost - those who have already made the eternal decision to reject relationship with Him. This is consistent in both the old and new covenants from my understanding. However, to those who have or will humble themselves and come into fellowship with Him, the scriptures speak clearly: Luke 2:13-14 KJVR(13) And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,(14) Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. (emphasis added) good will and anger don't mix; God isn't angry at the living who have or will (and only He knows) come into fellowship with Him by claiming Jesus as their substitute - but the lake of fire is all the justification needed to understand that permanently rejecting God will draw His wrath. GLY!!!
Quote from: DiscipleWhomJesusLoves on June 22, 2011, 12:36:19 amI don't think we can ever come to an agreement if we all study the Bible differently.I believe strongly in rightly dividing the Word--what's old, what's new and how the cross made a big difference, and not mixing the old with the new. Reminds me of how I used to debate with the RCs on CF. One day, I realised that it was pointless becos we have different foundations or authorities. We go by the protestant Bible. They go by the RC Bible, tradition and what the Pope says.
Quote from: pastorzzub on June 22, 2011, 02:36:59 amNow, I preach grace. I preach the goodness of God. I preach that God is not mad at the world, that He doesn't hold the sin of the world against it, and that Jesus is the express image of God.So, I see miracles every Sunday. Last week, we saw two men who were too short sighted to read text without glasses healed. Every individual in our church who came on Sunday in pain left pain free.That is a direct result of teaching the rightly divided word of truth. If you preach legalism and mixture, you don't see miracles. Jesus said that if you don't believe Him, believe because you see the miracles. I make the same claim, and it works. Because I know it is not based on how good I am, because I know no matter what I do or say, God is still madly in love with me.
Quote from: jiminpa on June 21, 2011, 02:22:36 pmI see a loving God of grace in the Old Testament, yet one who eventually pours out His wrath, just as He does in the NT. God was every bit as merciful in the OT as He is now, it's just that from our perspective the cross happened in our past, rather than it being a foreshadowed future event. It seems to me that the cross was available through its foreshadows before it happened in our chronology, but that is a different topic. What I don't understand is this schizo God the NT only people describe. We don't get to cherry pick the verses we like. The same God who came to us in one of our sukkas, (bodies), is the same God who will destroy His whole creation in wrath, under the New Covenant. The God of the plagues IS the God of healing. Edit:I want to add, but am concerned that the tone may be misread, that from my perspective it seems that viewing the cross as somehow changing God's character so that He was once the God of wrath, but now is the God of mercy is the perspective that filters out who God is. God still is as He has always been merciful, but just, loving yet capable of wrath beyond our comprehension. The God who created Satan and cursed mankind for the sin of one, has always been the God who came to us as the sacrifice He Himself required. He has always been the God who atoned to Himself for our sins, and always been the God who required blood atonement. The God of justice and wrath is the God of mercy and love, and has always been so. The cross was the point in time that He put it into action. We no longer need to sacrifice animals because the complete sacrifice has been made eternally for all. That's what changed, and consequences of the sacrifice being in our past. God is still God.
QuoteRom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
QuoteJas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
QuoteMar 4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables? Mar 4:14 The sower soweth the word. Mar 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts. Mar 4:16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; Mar 4:17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended. Mar 4:18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word, Mar 4:19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful. Mar 4:20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.
QuoteHeb 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
QuoteRom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Quote from: Yitzchak on June 23, 2011, 07:16:43 am Some good points to think about. I think that this reading of the Old Testament as not applying to us is a legalistic reading.
QuoteThe thing that bothers me about it is it reminds me so much of dealing with my older brother who is orthodox Jewish. The entire scripture is about who God is. To read the Old Testament as a series of rules is a legalistic reading of it. This point seems to be missed when Christians dismiss the Old Testament as not applying to us. What they really mean is that the rules do not apply to us. Any school of thought that leads us to a place where we think God is pleased with us when we rebel against Him is false. It seems that some Christians today have simply inserted saying the sinner's prayer for circumcision. Perform the ritual and then move on with your life. Righteous living is not required in this legalistic view. Because they think that God's righteous requirements are just rules that should have never been made.
Quote This view that we are saved by saying a prayer back in 1972 and then living for the devil with no consequences is not scriptural.
QuoteNot only that , it is the same exact mistake that the Pharisees made.
QuoteOur walk with God is a daily walk of faith. This idea that all future sins are automatically forgiven is not supported by scripture. The scripture says if we confess our sins , he is faithful and just to forgive us. That implies repentance. If we choose to walk in sin after we have been saved , we make the Lord angry and eventually we will be cut off. The reason for that is God's anger is a part of who he is which does not change. For God not to do so would make God partial and not just.
Quote I actually feel quite strongly about it. I think a lot of people have missed the point of why the Jewish people backslid and incurred God's anger. Reading what people write , it seems that many think God is angry with the Jewish people because they are Jewish. They miss the main point. The Jews were accepted by God as His people. Their problem was not that they are Jewish. Their problem is not that God gave them the Old Testament. Their problem is unbelief and rebellion against God. When Christians choose unbelief and rebellion they get the same consequence that the Jews did . The scripture says so. This subtle anti Jewish thinking that has found it's way into the church is not the Gospel. It is pride and prejudice. The reference to the well known movie intended. It bugs me the way that many Christians misrepresent God's covenant with the Jews by taking a few passages out of context
Quote Anyway , religious people tend to be the same whether they are Jewish or Christian. It is one thing to walk in faith on a daily basis. It is another to trust in religious rituals to save us and think we can get by with a prayer and then live for the devil as though "in the name of Jesus" is some magic formula to ward off God's wrath. God judges sin. Always has and always will. Grace is there. But redefining grace to mean that Christians are exempt from obedience to God is religious pride.
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