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In the Hands of an angry God???

Started by Rachel Faith, June 17, 2011, 10:29:02 pm

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pastorzzub

I just want it to be known, I am not somewhere in the middle.  I believe I am in the New Covenant in the age of grace.  I believe that I am born again, that I am righteous, that my sins are completely removed from me and that I have peace with God no matter what I do, and that God will never leave me or forsake me.

I believe that I am God's son and He loves me no matter what.

I believe that I am not for one moment in the Old Covenant.  I believe that to live under the Old Covenant rules for a New Covenant believer is foolishness and witchcraft.

jiminpa

Quote from: pastorzzub on June 29, 2011, 11:09:54 am
But Jim, surely you don't apply it all to yourself today?  What is the difference between your eating of pork and failure to stone teenagers to death?  Surely that then, by your own criteria, is throwing the Old Testament out.

I have no problems with the phrase throwing the Old Covenant out as long as we mean the Covenant and not the books!  I didn't throw the Old Covenant out, I didn't rip the veil in two, God did.
I don't apply it all.  Some rightfully so, (the sacrifices have been fulfilled), and some out of spiritual laziness.  I wonder if eating pork really is okay, but I have been an American Christian so long that I'm not sure where the line is.  I am sure that God's character is the same as it has always been, and that it was Him who ordered Moses, Joshua, and King Saul not to leave anything or anyone alive at times.  I know that we would learn a great deal if we celebrated the Biblical holy days as prescribed in the scriptures.  I am also sure that God has enough anger and wrath in His character to completely annihilate creation in wrath, and enough love and mercy to remake it unperverted by sin.

The sermon "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God," is one of those "fire insurance" sermons that I seriously question. 
I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.

pastorzzub

On your last paragraph we are in full agreement.  It was preached by a Calvinist who when people came to be saved told them they weren't the elect and were darned to hell.  Many suicides happened in his depressing, ungodly ministry.  His own uncle killed himself and he said that God made him kill himself for greater good.

That religious nonsense is still here today unfortunately.

lismore

Quote from: jiminpa on June 29, 2011, 11:27:47 am
I am sure that God's character is the same as it has always been, and that it was Him who ordered Moses, Joshua, and King Saul not to leave anything or anyone alive at times.   


I think there were reasons that  God ordered such things.

King Saul allowed Agag and the Amalekites to live when God commanded they die.  If you look later in the bible, it was an Amalekite that killed Saul.  Then it was Haaman, an amalekite and an Agagite that tried to wipe out the Jews in the time of Esther.

God had to preserve the Jews so that the messiah would be born. God knows best. 

:)

Supplanter

June 29, 2011, 01:15:44 pm #104 Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 01:37:24 pm by Supplanter
Quote from: pastorzzub on June 29, 2011, 11:14:41 am
I just want it to be known, I am not somewhere in the middle.  I believe I am in the New Covenant in the age of grace.  I believe that I am born again, that I am righteous, that my sins are completely removed from me and that I have peace with God no matter what I do, and that God will never leave me or forsake me.

I believe that I am God's son and He loves me no matter what.

I believe that I am not for one moment in the Old Covenant.  I believe that to live under the Old Covenant rules for a New Covenant believer is foolishness and witchcraft.


I wasn't talking about being somewhere in the middle between the Old and New Convenant. I was referring to the fact that no one just reads the Old testament and throws out the new or the new and throws out the Old. Wasn't referring to the covenant but the books and how we interpret the way they they inform one another. In that way, we all have interpreted both and come to our own conclusions, right or wrong thought they may be.

Supplanter


Pete

Quote from: jiminpa on June 29, 2011, 11:27:47 am
I wonder if eating pork really is okay, but I have been an American Christian so long that I'm not sure where the line is.


I'd like to address this point.

Why do you wonder that?  Didn't Jesus directly address that?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Mark 7:14-19 (NIV)
Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them.”

After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Now to me, it would appear that the question of whether it's OK to eat pork has been addressed very directly by Jesus, and on the surface, it appears to me that anyone who still questions whether it's OK to ear pork or not is either unaware of what Jesus said, or "throwing out" what He said.  However, because I don't believe for one minute that it is your intent to dismiss things that our Lord and Savior said, I would be interested to hear how you interpret what Jesus said such that it still causes you to question if it's OK to eat pork.

However you answer that question, whether I agree with you or not, it would be patently dishonest for me to continue to assert that you're "throwing out the words of Jesus" if you explain to me what you believe concerning Jesus' explanation of the parable.  Rather, it would simply illustrate that we have different interpretations and/or beliefs concerning what Jesus said.

O0
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

JohnDB

June 29, 2011, 04:20:44 pm #107 Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 06:26:22 pm by JohnDB
I agree Pete,
I linked Old Testament with the New Testament to show how Holy God is & somehow I've thrown out the Old Testament.
I wanna die like grandpa, peacefully and in his sleep. Not like the passengers in his car...they were all screaming and panicking.

pastorzzub

Do you mean New, john? Honest question.

JohnDB

Yes ZZub,

I was trying to demonstrate how & why we cannot overstep the measure of common grace we have been afforded.
I wanna die like grandpa, peacefully and in his sleep. Not like the passengers in his car...they were all screaming and panicking.

pastorzzub


JohnDB

There is a natural state to holy.
Holy destroys error.

God is Holy, Holy, Holy.

The Earth is holy. God made it. The Earth is cursed because, unlike God who will & man might forgive a person that repents, the earth can't & won't forgive anyone. It doesn't have the capacity to do that.

God protects mankind with a measure of Grace from this earth. Exceed that measure & the heavens & Earth will destroy you.

Eventually we will die. The earth gets its revenge. But God clothes us with the righteousness of Jesus which protects us from God's triple holiness & in the blink of an eye we find ourselves in Heaven.

God's stuff is his stuff no matter where it is. And all of God's stuff/people are Holy. Don't mess with it.

Remember: "I will bless those that bless you & curse those that curse you". It was originally said in Hebrew in a very poetic fashion in a completely different culture but this is eternally true. The cursing part is difficult for some to understand but essentially it is about exceeding the "common grace" afforded to all mankind.
I wanna die like grandpa, peacefully and in his sleep. Not like the passengers in his car...they were all screaming and panicking.

Yitzchak

Quote from: jiminpa on June 29, 2011, 11:27:47 am
  I wonder if eating pork really is okay, but I have been an American Christian so long that I'm not sure where the line is. 




     The only reason to abstain from pork as a Gentile is for the same purpose that we eat organic or buy water filters. For physical health.  We can see even in the natural that our bodies thrive on purity. We buy water filters and organic foods. People buy herbal cleanses and write books on juice fasts to cleanse pour bodies. From a health standpoint , I would suggest staying away from pork. It is really filled with toxins and not the healthy choice.

      The spiritual lesson is to guard our purity. But there is no spiritual need for kosher laws in the Christian Church.


        There are still plenty of Jews in the world giving witness to these things. The early church made the choice that the Gentiles did not need to bear that burden.

QuoteAct 15:19  Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
Act 15:20  But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Act 15:21  For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.




              The lesson in this well known passage was that God can take even the most unclean and make it clean. Even sinners could be made clean by Jesus. God still requires purity but it is not a purity that we will obtain from eating organic food. It is a purity spiritually.

QuoteAct 10:9  On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
Act 10:10  And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
Act 10:11  And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
Act 10:12  Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
Act 10:13  And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
Act 10:14  But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
Act 10:15  And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common



 


   
To know him and to make him known

Optimax

Those who are born again are delivered from God's wrath which is to come.
Tornadoes, earthquakes, floods, etc. are NOT God's wrath as many if not most think and say.

1 Thess 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
KJV

1 Thess 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath , but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
KJV


God's wrath is poured out on the earth and those in it after we(the Body of Christ) is removed(delivered from the wrath).
That time is what the Book of Revelation is about.

Rev 6:17
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV


Andy S. Wright

July 11, 2011, 09:09:06 am #114 Last Edit: July 11, 2011, 01:52:04 pm by Andy S. Wright
I think the hang up on this subject is our perspective of what "angry" is.  If you're like me and was raised with an angry parent, you probably have a dysfunctional understanding of the word "angry".  I know I did.  In fact, I considered the emotion to be a sin to be exorcised like a demonic spirit.  However, as I have learned over the years, there is a healthy version of anger that is a necessary component to many walks of life, not the least of which is parenting.

Every parent on the planet gets angry with their kids at some point in time.  I get angry with my children when they willfully choose to disobey or rebel but that doesn't mean I am looking to hurt them as a consequence.  Nor does it mean I do not love them.  In fact, it is BECAUSE I love them that I get angry at their stubborness, rebellion, and the like.  Anyone worthy of the title "parent" wants their children to make good life decisions.  Our parental anger at their habitual decisions to rebel (just for an example) is part of the parenting process.  Our children need to know when they have crossed a very dangerous line and a healthy dose of the proper kind of "fear" is a good way to show that.  The type of fear the Bible refers to when instructing us to "fear God" is not terror but respect that produces devotion, obedience, and exaltation.  We all need that kind of "fear" of the Lord as our children need it for us as their parents.

Love is not the opposite of anger, or visa versa.  I think we have it in our heads that divine anger=hellfire and damnation.  This is not the case.  We are instructed to be angry without sin (Ephesians 4:26).  It is not the emotion of anger that is sin but the actions we choose to take as a result of that emotion.  God, in his perfection, has the entire spectrum of emotions, yet without sin.  To say he does not get angry with us at any time flies in the face of a great deal of scripture.  However, anger does not equal death and destruction raining from the heavens (i.e. Sodom and Gomorrah).

I believe God's children will never see the eternal wrath of God.  We have been born again and adopted into the family of God. We are his children in every sense of the word and as such will be spared the judgment and wrath of our sins.  The blood of Christ has washed us clean and our savior has taken that wrath for us.

That said, when we habitually choose to rebel against God's mercy, grace, and wisdom, God does feel many things and one of those emotions is sinless anger.  This anger will manifest in many different ways to his children.  Again, like my own children, my response to their disobedience is as varied as their personalities.  My middle daughter is a daddy's girl through and through.  All I have to do to get her attention is let her know that I am not happy with her actions in a loving but firm way and she will normally straighten up pretty quickly.  My youngest often needs to see that I am angry with her attitude or actions before she responds.  Again, my anger toward her is not displayed in a dramatic fashion.  Usually just a facial expression will do.  If that doesn't work, then I get to use my "daddy voice".

Sometimes God has to use his "daddy voice" to get our attention.  God knows He's had to break it out on me more than once in my walk with him and will undoubtedly have to again before I leave this life.  I know when I've crossed the line that he is less than pleased with my decisions.  That knowledge is coupled with my understanding that He loves me unconditionally.  There is nothing I can do that will change the latter.  There is a lot I can do to affect the former.

This is a deep subject and I would not dream of presenting myself as an expert on this or any other issue.  These thoughts are just what I've experienced in my personal journey with God.  I pray this is received in the spirit it is given.

I look forward to the iron sharpening.  :)

ASW 
Whatever doesn't kill you may make you stronger, but whatever does kill you will make you invincible. - 1 Samuel 17:37

Pete

Quote from: Andy S. Wright on July 11, 2011, 09:09:06 am
I think the hang up on this subject is our perspective of what "angry" is.


I would agree wholeheartedly.

That was an excellent post where you gave many examples of how we can be angry, but not sin.  It seems that it is because of the many connotations that are attached to the word "anger" that we are having such a difficult time reaching agreement in this thread.  Many people believe that God's anger is equated to destruction, that when God gets angry, He starts sending earthquakes and floods to destroy and kill people (or stepping out of the way and removing His hand of protection from those things).  But I think I agree much more with what you've said.

The fact is, "anger" doesn't equate to destruction.  As you so eloquently put it, I get angry at my children when they disobey me, but I don't EVER seek to hurt them or destroy them, no matter what they may do.  Quite to the contrary, it is always my goal to encourage them, to train them up in the way they should go.

I believe that God's anger, much like everything else, is founded upon and borne out of His Love for us.  His anger does not seek to harm us, but rather His anger functions to bring us back to Him, very much like the anger of a loving parent.

O0
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

Rachel Faith

That's interesting. Very eloquently spoken, ASW... Thanks for posting that.
Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Peter 4:8

DiscipleWhomJesusLoves

Quote from: Optimax on July 08, 2011, 03:12:01 pm
Those who are born again are delivered from God's wrath which is to come.
Tornadoes, earthquakes, floods, etc. are NOT God's wrath as many if not most think and say.

1 Thess 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
KJV

1 Thess 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath , but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
KJV


God's wrath is poured out on the earth and those in it after we(the Body of Christ) is removed(delivered from the wrath).
That time is what the Book of Revelation is about.

Rev 6:17
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV


AMEN!