Started by Supplanter, March 25, 2011, 08:48:11 am
QuoteThat is why I resist the lectures that Christians give me about their being in grace so do not talk to them about sin. Their sin gives them away that they are not in grace as much as they testify that they are.
Quote from: Yitzchak on June 27, 2011, 12:30:21 amThe more that someone really lives in grace , the less that they sin. When someone becomes a Christian and then lives in all kinds of sin it tells me that they are still in works rather than grace. they may have gotten a glimpse of grace. But they did not really receive it fully. Because had they ceased from their own works , they would also have ceased from sin. They would only do what The Holy Spirit leads them to do. As the song says , More of you and less of me. That is why I resist the lectures that Christians give me about their being in grace so do not talk to them about sin. Their sin gives them away that they are not in grace as much as they testify that they are.
QuoteThere is a WORLD of difference between doing something out of obligation vs. doing something out of desire. I believe that more often than not, the church today teaches a religion of obligation instead of a relationship of desire.
Quote from: Pete on June 27, 2011, 09:34:06 amWhen you say, "The more that someone really lives in grace , the less that they sin", this scripture seems to indicate that maybe you've got that backwards;-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Romans 5:20-21 (NIV)The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Some translations say where sin abounds, grace does MUCH MORE abound. Does this mean people should just go on sinning because they're under grace. Nope. Romans 6 goes on to say the exact opposite;-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Romans 6:1-2 (NIV)What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-At some point, a change should be evident. But we must be careful to not be quick to write people off because they still struggle with some type of sin. Even Paul struggled with this; -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Romans 7:15 (NIV) I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-I think too often, the church tosses people aside who have the exact same struggle; they find themselves doing things they know they shouldn't do and not doing things they know they should do. This is when grace should increase. But often it's the exact opposite. We tell people they must stop sinning, and so they strive to "do better", yet never really have any kind of internal change. They attempt to clean the outside of the cup to pass muster with whoever it is that is telling them how to behave, but they never really deal with the inside of the cup.This is my concern with people who focus too much on performance. It's true that God desires our obedience, but not because it's what the preacher told us we have to do, but rather because it's our desire to be pleasing to Him.There is a WORLD of difference between doing something out of obligation vs. doing something out of desire. I believe that more often than not, the church today teaches a religion of obligation instead of a relationship of desire.
Quote from: Supplanter on June 27, 2011, 08:16:01 am But why do you think it would be your place to talk to them about their sin? I find that most Christians very much know when they are sinning and that the Holy Spirit is more than capable of convicting them of it. Rarely have I actually heard a Christian excuse their sin because they are under grace and rarely have I seen a Christian in continual sin who had any peace at all. God knows how to discipline His children much better than I ever could. He loves them perfectly and sees them perfectly. How am I to rightly judge what he does with His own servants?
QuoteHeb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. Heb 12:12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
QuoteEcc 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: Ecc 3:2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; Ecc 3:3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; Ecc 3:4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; Ecc 3:5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; Ecc 3:6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; Ecc 3:7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; Ecc 3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
QuoteMat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
QuoteMat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
QuoteGal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
Quote1Co 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 1Co 6:4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 1Co 6:5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? 1Co 6:6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers
Quote1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 1Co 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Quote1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
QuoteMat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Quote from: Yitzchak on June 27, 2011, 01:46:19 pm The bottom line for me of this whole discussion about God's anger and grace is the parable of the great debtor. I know that the parable speaks about forgiveness. In the parable , the Lord who forgave the great debt is God. In the parable it says he gets angry when he finds out that the servant refused to show grace to his fellow servant but had no problem receiving grace from the Lord. In the parable God takes back his grace and reverses his decision and instead deals with the servant harshly. In my view this answers the question of the opening post. Can God get angry at someone he has forgiven and shown grace to ? In the parable it says he does.
Quote from: Pete on June 27, 2011, 02:25:18 pmThis should show us how important it is for us to offer forgiveness for others. I started a thread on this very topic last May (Forgiveness; a debt we could never repay on our own).As I said earlier in the thread, I don't debate the fact that God can get angry with us. However, I think it's wrong to use the anger of God to try to get people to respond. I believe at best it falls short of the Love relationship that He desires with us and at worst it is a form of manipulation.With that said, I recognize that some people may have responded and chose God out of fear and obligation and then transitioned over to a relationship based on desire. I would even concede that for some people, that may be necessary. But it seems like many times, it's just an unnecessary detour.
Quote from: Supplanter on June 27, 2011, 02:16:45 pmI understand that your view is filltered through your expeience just as mine is. I honestly don't find a lot of churches around here that preach about grace. Every Sunday all I hear about is what horrible sinners we are and how we need to do this and that and this "if" we are really saved and how we need to "get right." It bother's me that we are focused on sin rather than Christ and all Hs attributes, not just grace wen I am in church. There is no celebration of how good He is. And yes, I agree if you believe then you do something about it, you don't just continue on as you once were.
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