Started by AudioArtist, February 10, 2011, 11:54:29 am
Quote from: jiminpa on February 10, 2011, 10:00:21 pmI really wish I had time to go into this as I wish. One of my major disagreements with WoF is the refusal to deal with the concepts that we clearly see in Job.
Quote from: jiminpa on February 10, 2011, 10:00:21 pmGod granted Satan the permission to test Job,
Quote from: jiminpa on February 10, 2011, 10:00:21 pmin fact He goaded him into it.
Quote from: jiminpa on February 10, 2011, 10:00:21 pmHe also, like with the tides, set a line of "this far and no further."
Quote from: jiminpa on February 10, 2011, 10:00:21 pmWhile there is legitimacy to progressive revelation, what the scripture clearly says is still scripture, no matter when it was written.
Quote from: AudioArtist on February 10, 2011, 11:54:29 amNew International VersionAll his brothers and sisters and everyone who had known him before came and ate with him in his house. They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the LORD had brought upon him, and each one gave him a piece of silver and a gold ring.New Living Translation Then all his brothers, sisters, and former friends came and feasted with him in his home. And they consoled him and comforted him because of all the trials the LORD had brought against him. And each of them brought him a gift of money and a gold ring.English Standard VersionThen came to him all his brothers and sisters and all who had known him before, and ate bread with him in his house. And they showed him sympathy and comforted him for all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him. And each of them gave him a piece of money and a ring of gold.New American Standard Bible Then all his brothers and all his sisters and all who had known him before came to him, and they ate bread with him in his house; and they consoled him and comforted him for all the adversities that the LORD had brought on him. And each one gave him one piece of money, and each a ring of gold.However one translates the underlined word, this passage states that it was God Himself (and not Satan) who brought the suffering on Job that we read in the book. I've various commentaries and web pages exploring this, with most of them speaking of it in terms of God's sovereignty over everything that happens, His use of trials to make us grow in understanding, and His ability to use evil for a greater good. How would you guys understanding the passage? This isn't something that is causing me to stumble in my faith, nor do I have any theological agenda to push. I am just very open to any insights you might have and what the Spirit might be saying to you about this phrase in Job. I know that If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity occurs in a city has not the LORD done it? (Amos 3:6), and that God said: I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things (Isaiah 45:7). However, the passage in Job is different because it is a righteous man who is greatly afflicted and then even more greatly blessed by God, not a wicked people who are justly being punished by calamity.
Quote from: Pete on February 10, 2011, 10:39:54 pm But Jim, I just explained what I believe concerning those alleged concepts in Job. We may disagree here, but it's not really fair to say that I've "refused to deal with" it. I just apparently arrived at a different conclusion than you. I believe this is a false "concept" that has unfortunately found its way into some translations of scripture. If you look at the first and second chapters of Job, some translations of scripture indicate that God responded to Satan by saying, "Very well then" when Satan alleged that Job had a hedge around him. But God actually responded by saying "Behold!" or "Lo!" Absolutely nowhere else in scripture is "Lo" or "Behold" translated to "Very well then". It simply means "look". Essentially, Satan accused Job of only fearing God because of a supposed hedge, and God responded by saying "Look, everything he has is in your power." IOW, I believe that God was calling Satan a liar, essentially defending Job by saying that Job's fearing of God had absolutely nothing to do with a hedge of protection. I don't think it's accurate to say God "goaded" Satan to attack Job. It's true that God introduced Job in the discussion, and to be quite honest with you, I honestly have no idea why. But I must conclude from the passage above in James that God is not tempted by evil, nor does He tempt with evil. Indeed. God not only did not grant Satan permission to attack Job, but He actually set a limit on what Satan could do to him. Agreed. And James says quite clearly that our trials and temptations don't come from God, and that we should not to be deceived, that God is not changing like shifting shadows, sending evil on us one minute, and sending "good" and "perfect" things the next. Additionally, Job 1 and 2 very clearly state that it was Satan who afflicted Job, yet Job 42 says that it was God that brought his trials upon him. Was it Satan, as Job 1 and 2 clearly state, or was it God, as Job 42 clearly states? Further, how can we reconcile what is stated in Job 42 with the passage in James above? I would submit to you that as Paul said, we all see through a glass dimly, and as anyone who has ever spent any time debating scripture and theology knows, if you ask 10 people what scripture "clearly states", you'll get 10 different answers. So what I do when come to seeming inconsistencies in scripture is to start with an eternal Truth, that I believe all other Truth proceeds from; Jesus. The statement in Job 42 is not at all consistent with the image of the Father that Jesus portrayed to us. This is significant to me, because Jesus very clearly stated that if we have seen Him, then we have seen the Father. From what was revealed to us in the person of Jesus Christ in scripture, I simply don't see Jesus bringing evil upon people. Also, due to the lack of discussion of Satan in the OT, I can only conclude that many people in the OT simply were not aware of the existence of Satan. The words "Satan" and "devil" appear 14 times in the OT. Those same terms appear 66 times in the NT. There are 12 more books in the OT than in the NT, yet Satan is mentioned nearly 5 times less throughout the entire OT. Why? And why did Jesus talk so much about the devil? I'm no Bible scholar, but I believe the reason that Jesus spent so much time explaining how Satan was a liar, a thief, a killer, and a destroyer is because people at the time simply believed that everything that occurred was attributable to God. I believe Jesus was correcting that misconception. In any event, this is what I've come to believe after examining the story of Job in light of the revelation of the Father through Jesus Christ.
Quote from: lovesblessing on February 11, 2011, 12:27:07 amContext, context is so important when understanding scripture......also, it isn't a good idea to take one verse of scripture and make a doctrine out of it.....that is a bad habit that alot of religious folks love to do.....to a lot of folks misery, unfortunately....lol.....so here is what I have learned to do...... I look to see who it is that is talking or being written about....in the verse you asked about, please note that it is merely a recording of what the folks who came to visit Job and console him thought had happened in his life.....they had no revelation that there even was a devil.....all you have to do is read what his three friends thought was going on in his life......they didn't have a clue either, and God wasn't real pleased with how they were talking about Him either....just read chapter 42 from the beginning and you will see what I mean.
Quote from: jiminpa on February 11, 2011, 07:32:31 pmI'm sorry that you read that to mean specifically you Pete. I will break down my response to you on this a little later, (I hope), but I wanted to clarify that I was pointing to you there.
Quote from: AudioArtist on February 10, 2011, 11:54:29 amHowever one translates the underlined word, this passage states that it was God Himself (and not Satan) who brought the suffering on Job that we read in the book. I've various commentaries and web pages exploring this, with most of them speaking of it in terms of God's sovereignty over everything that happens, His use of trials to make us grow in understanding, and His ability to use evil for a greater good. How would you guys understanding the passage? This isn't something that is causing me to stumble in my faith, nor do I have any theological agenda to push. I am just very open to any insights you might have and what the Spirit might be saying to you about this phrase in Job. I know that If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity occurs in a city has not the LORD done it? (Amos 3:6), and that God said: I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things (Isaiah 45:7). However, the passage in Job is different because it is a righteous man who is greatly afflicted and then even more greatly blessed by God, not a wicked people who are justly being punished by calamity.
Quote from: DiscipleHeLovesToo on February 16, 2011, 10:30:05 amHere's how i understand this. God gave Job authority in the earth through Adam (Gen 1:26). Job yielded that authority to the devil through fear (Job 1:5; Job 3:25). This fear gave the devil the right to approach God to accuse Job; but even though God knew that it was Job himself who had allowed the devil to get through his 'hedge of protection', God defended Job to the devil (Job 1:8; Job 2:3), and limited what the devil could do to him (Job 1:12; Job 2:6). The authority that the devil used to afflict Job was the authority that God had delegated to Job. Here in the US; people are allowed to carry firearms. Sometimes people do things with those firearms that the US government never intended; yet the government is often held accountable, because US government gave people authority to have firearms to begin with. There is no freedom without authority; and authority given to men not perfectly following God (which would include everyone except Jesus) is often perverted.If God had not given Job authority in the earth, then Job's faith in the devil's ability to steal, kill and destroy (fear) would yield no power to the devil. I think that the correct interpretation of Job 42:11 is that the people who came to Job to comfort him (after Job had put his faith back in the goodness of God, which turned Job's delegated authority back to good) thought that the evil Job suffered came from God - the writer of Job is relaying what the people thought; not what God inspired them to think. The subject of Job 42:11 is the people who came to Job; what they did (eat bread, bemoaned, comforted) and what THEY thought (the evil that the Lord had brought upon him). It would be more clear if the words "that they thought" were included - 'and comforted him over all the evil that they thought the Lord had brought upon him'. Otherwise, i see no way to harmonize this verse with Job's own confession in Job 3:25 that it was his own fear (not God) that brought evil upon him.
Quote from: jiminpa on February 17, 2011, 11:02:58 pmIf everything we ever said in the midst of hardship came to pass, none of us would ever come through real trials. The only way I see to conclude that Job brought that on himself is to amplify that one single verse to a proportion it doesn't have, and ignore a whole lot of the rest of scripture, including the first two chapters of Job.
Quote from: jiminpa on February 17, 2011, 11:02:58 pmSorry, but I really don't have the time to break down my views on Job the way I like, so I will have to summarize it. I believe that God is more sovereign than a lot of WoF teachers allow, and that He always sets the limits on what we face, but that our definition of "bad" or "evil" are from a limited and selfish point of view.
Quote from: jiminpa on February 17, 2011, 11:02:58 pmWhat we call bad is sometimes very good in light of eternity, and sometimes God makes the devil deliver the gifts that He is setting before us. That is a very simplified synopsis, but it's the best I can do right now.
Quote from: jiminpa on February 18, 2011, 09:42:25 pmPete, you and I are probably closer to agreement on this than not, with a few variations.
Quote from: jiminpa on February 18, 2011, 09:42:25 pmMy wife had been fighting viruses for over a month, (stomach virus and flu), and is now in Grove City hospital with pneumonia and sepsis, so I have been really squeezed for time. That always seems to be the case when these discussions open up. One day....
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