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Job 42:11

Started by AudioArtist, February 10, 2011, 11:54:29 am

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AudioArtist

New International Version
All his brothers and sisters and everyone who had known him before came and ate with him in his house. They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the LORD had brought upon him, and each one gave him a piece of silver and a gold ring.

New Living Translation
Then all his brothers, sisters, and former friends came and feasted with him in his home. And they consoled him and comforted him because of all the trials the LORD had brought against him. And each of them brought him a gift of money and a gold ring.

English Standard Version
Then came to him all his brothers and sisters and all who had known him before, and ate bread with him in his house. And they showed him sympathy and comforted him for all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him. And each of them gave him a piece of money and a ring of gold.

New American Standard Bible
Then all his brothers and all his sisters and all who had known him before came to him, and they ate bread with him in his house; and they consoled him and comforted him for all the adversities that the LORD had brought on him. And each one gave him one piece of money, and each a ring of gold.


However one translates the underlined word, this passage states that it was God Himself (and not Satan) who brought the suffering on Job that we read in the book.

I've various commentaries and web pages exploring this, with most of them speaking of it in terms of God's sovereignty over everything that happens, His use of trials to make us grow in understanding, and His ability to use evil for a greater good. 

How would you guys understanding the passage? This isn't something that is causing me to stumble in my faith, nor do I have any theological agenda to push. I am just very open to any insights you might have and what the Spirit might be saying to you about this phrase in Job. I know that If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity occurs in a city has not the LORD done it? (Amos 3:6), and that God said: I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things (Isaiah 45:7). However, the passage in Job is different because it is a righteous man who is greatly afflicted and then even more greatly blessed by God, not a wicked people who are justly being punished by calamity.

Pete

I've got some thoughts on this I'll post later tonight after work.

O0
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

sharonl

I have a friend who is a modern day Job - one thing after another happens to her, it just goes on and on, husband in nursing home with alzheimers, son in jail, she just had a double breast surgery for cancer. If she works, the government will make her take her husband out of the nursing home because she won't qualify - it just goes on and on - she went to her pastor this past Sunday and ask him if this ever ends - he told her there are modern day Jobs. Not much consolation for her, but that is what he said.
Diamonds From Heaven - help for the hurting heart
http://gentle.org/sites/diamonds/
Beautiful gifts - the men love them http://chopsknives.com

Pete

To understand what I'm about to say, you must understand that I believe that Bible is a progressive revelation.  I don't have the numbers handy, but if you search the Old Testament and the New Testament for the terms "Satan", "Devil", etc., you'll find a very large disparity in the number of mentions.  Interestingly, the Old Testament is much lengthier than the New Testament, yet Satan is mentioned many times less in the OT than in the NT.  This indicates to me that either Satan suddenly became very active in the NT, or people in the OT lacked an understanding of Satan, which caused them to attribute anything and everything that they couldn't explain otherwise to God.

In John 10, Jesus explains very clearly that it is Satan who comes to kill, steal and destroy.  This is a revelation that I believe the people of the OT lacked.

With all of that in mind, consider what James has to say about trials;

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
James 1:12-178 (NIV)
Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him. When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters. Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

This passage shows us very clearly that God isn't tempting anyone with evil, nor is He the one putting us through the trials we go through.  James goes on to tell us to not be deceived, that God sends "good" and "perfect" gifts.  In the context of what James is saying here, he seems to be saying that we should be careful to not be deceived into attributing our trials and temptations and "evil" to God, because God sends "good and "perfect" gifts.  He doesn't change, sending evil one day, and good the next.

What James is saying is the exact opposite of what this passage in Job states.  Corroborating what James said with what Jesus said, that is the devil who comes to steal, kill and destroy, and also with the clear instruction that we have an enemy that we are to resist, I can only conclude that scripture in Job was written at a time when there was not a full revelation and understanding of the adversary.

O0
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

jiminpa

I really wish I had time to go into this as I wish.  One of my major disagreements with WoF is the refusal to deal with the concepts that we clearly see in Job.  God granted Satan the permission to test Job, in fact He goaded him into it.  He also, like with the tides, set a line of "this far and no further."  While there is legitimacy to progressive revelation, what the scripture clearly says is still scripture, no matter when it was written.  I find great comfort in knowing that God set the limits to my hardships, and not me. 
I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.

Pete

Quote from: jiminpa on February 10, 2011, 10:00:21 pm
I really wish I had time to go into this as I wish.  One of my major disagreements with WoF is the refusal to deal with the concepts that we clearly see in Job.


But Jim, I just explained what I believe concerning those alleged concepts in Job.  We may disagree here, but it's not really fair to say that I've "refused to deal with" it.  I just apparently arrived at a different conclusion than you.

Quote from: jiminpa on February 10, 2011, 10:00:21 pm
God granted Satan the permission to test Job,


I believe this is a false "concept" that has unfortunately found its way into some translations of scripture.  If you look at the first and second chapters of Job, some translations of scripture indicate that God responded to Satan by saying, "Very well then" when Satan alleged that Job had a hedge around him.  But God actually responded by saying "Behold!" or "Lo!"  Absolutely nowhere else in scripture is "Lo" or "Behold" translated to "Very well then".  It simply means "look".

Essentially, Satan accused Job of only fearing God because of a supposed hedge, and God responded by saying "Look, everything he has is in your power."  IOW, I believe that God was calling Satan a liar, essentially defending Job by saying that Job's fearing of God had absolutely nothing to do with a hedge of protection.

Quote from: jiminpa on February 10, 2011, 10:00:21 pm
in fact He goaded him into it.


I don't think it's accurate to say God "goaded" Satan to attack Job.  It's true that God introduced Job in the discussion, and to be quite honest with you, I honestly have no idea why.  But I must conclude from the passage above in James that God is not tempted by evil, nor does He tempt with evil.

Quote from: jiminpa on February 10, 2011, 10:00:21 pm
He also, like with the tides, set a line of "this far and no further."


Indeed.  God not only did not grant Satan permission to attack Job, but He actually set a limit on what Satan could do to him.

Quote from: jiminpa on February 10, 2011, 10:00:21 pm
While there is legitimacy to progressive revelation, what the scripture clearly says is still scripture, no matter when it was written.


Agreed.  And James says quite clearly that our trials and temptations don't come from God, and that we should not to be deceived, that God is not changing like shifting shadows, sending evil on us one minute, and sending "good" and "perfect" things the next.

Additionally, Job 1 and 2 very clearly state that it was Satan who afflicted Job, yet Job 42 says that it was God that brought his trials upon him.  Was it Satan, as Job 1 and 2 clearly state, or was it God, as Job 42 clearly states?  Further, how can we reconcile what is stated in Job 42 with the passage in James above?

I would submit to you that as Paul said, we all see through a glass dimly, and as anyone who has ever spent any time debating scripture and theology knows, if you ask 10 people what scripture "clearly states", you'll get 10 different answers.

So what I do when come to seeming inconsistencies in scripture is to start with an eternal Truth, that I believe all other Truth proceeds from; Jesus.  The statement in Job 42 is not at all consistent with the image of the Father that Jesus portrayed to us.  This is significant to me, because Jesus very clearly stated that if we have seen Him, then we have seen the Father.  From what was revealed to us in the person of Jesus Christ in scripture, I simply don't see Jesus bringing evil upon people.

Also, due to the lack of discussion of Satan in the OT, I can only conclude that many people in the OT simply were not aware of the existence of Satan.  The words "Satan" and "devil" appear 14 times in the OT.  Those same terms appear 66 times in the NT.  There are 12 more books in the OT than in the NT, yet Satan is mentioned nearly 5 times less throughout the entire OT.  Why?  And why did Jesus talk so much about the devil?

I'm no Bible scholar, but I believe the reason that Jesus spent so much time explaining how Satan was a liar, a thief, a killer, and a destroyer is because people at the time simply believed that everything that occurred was attributable to God.  I believe Jesus was correcting that misconception.

In any event, this is what I've come to believe after examining the story of Job in light of the revelation of the Father through Jesus Christ.

O0
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

lovesblessing

Context, context is so important when understanding scripture......also, it isn't a good idea to take one verse of scripture and make a doctrine out of it.....that is a bad habit that alot of religious folks love to do.....to a lot of folks misery, unfortunately....lol.....so here is what I have learned to do......

I look to see who it is that is talking or being written about....in the verse you asked about, please note that it is merely a recording of what the folks who came to visit Job and console him thought had happened in his life.....they had no revelation that there even was a devil.....all you have to do is read what his three friends thought was going on in his life......they didn't have a clue either, and God wasn't real pleased with how they were talking about Him either....just read chapter 42 from the beginning and you will see what I mean.   ;)

Quote from: AudioArtist on February 10, 2011, 11:54:29 am
New International Version
All his brothers and sisters and everyone who had known him before came and ate with him in his house. They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the LORD had brought upon him, and each one gave him a piece of silver and a gold ring.

New Living Translation
Then all his brothers, sisters, and former friends came and feasted with him in his home. And they consoled him and comforted him because of all the trials the LORD had brought against him. And each of them brought him a gift of money and a gold ring.

English Standard Version
Then came to him all his brothers and sisters and all who had known him before, and ate bread with him in his house. And they showed him sympathy and comforted him for all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him. And each of them gave him a piece of money and a ring of gold.

New American Standard Bible
Then all his brothers and all his sisters and all who had known him before came to him, and they ate bread with him in his house; and they consoled him and comforted him for all the adversities that the LORD had brought on him. And each one gave him one piece of money, and each a ring of gold.


However one translates the underlined word, this passage states that it was God Himself (and not Satan) who brought the suffering on Job that we read in the book.

I've various commentaries and web pages exploring this, with most of them speaking of it in terms of God's sovereignty over everything that happens, His use of trials to make us grow in understanding, and His ability to use evil for a greater good. 

How would you guys understanding the passage? This isn't something that is causing me to stumble in my faith, nor do I have any theological agenda to push. I am just very open to any insights you might have and what the Spirit might be saying to you about this phrase in Job. I know that If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity occurs in a city has not the LORD done it? (Amos 3:6), and that God said: I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things (Isaiah 45:7). However, the passage in Job is different because it is a righteous man who is greatly afflicted and then even more greatly blessed by God, not a wicked people who are justly being punished by calamity.
Faith is having a good opinion of God!


jiminpa

Quote from: Pete on February 10, 2011, 10:39:54 pm

But Jim, I just explained what I believe concerning those alleged concepts in Job.  We may disagree here, but it's not really fair to say that I've "refused to deal with" it.  I just apparently arrived at a different conclusion than you.
 
I believe this is a false "concept" that has unfortunately found its way into some translations of scripture.  If you look at the first and second chapters of Job, some translations of scripture indicate that God responded to Satan by saying, "Very well then" when Satan alleged that Job had a hedge around him.  But God actually responded by saying "Behold!" or "Lo!"  Absolutely nowhere else in scripture is "Lo" or "Behold" translated to "Very well then".  It simply means "look".

Essentially, Satan accused Job of only fearing God because of a supposed hedge, and God responded by saying "Look, everything he has is in your power."  IOW, I believe that God was calling Satan a liar, essentially defending Job by saying that Job's fearing of God had absolutely nothing to do with a hedge of protection.
 
I don't think it's accurate to say God "goaded" Satan to attack Job.  It's true that God introduced Job in the discussion, and to be quite honest with you, I honestly have no idea why.  But I must conclude from the passage above in James that God is not tempted by evil, nor does He tempt with evil.
 
Indeed.  God not only did not grant Satan permission to attack Job, but He actually set a limit on what Satan could do to him.
 
Agreed.  And James says quite clearly that our trials and temptations don't come from God, and that we should not to be deceived, that God is not changing like shifting shadows, sending evil on us one minute, and sending "good" and "perfect" things the next.

Additionally, Job 1 and 2 very clearly state that it was Satan who afflicted Job, yet Job 42 says that it was God that brought his trials upon him.  Was it Satan, as Job 1 and 2 clearly state, or was it God, as Job 42 clearly states?  Further, how can we reconcile what is stated in Job 42 with the passage in James above?

I would submit to you that as Paul said, we all see through a glass dimly, and as anyone who has ever spent any time debating scripture and theology knows, if you ask 10 people what scripture "clearly states", you'll get 10 different answers.

So what I do when come to seeming inconsistencies in scripture is to start with an eternal Truth, that I believe all other Truth proceeds from; Jesus.  The statement in Job 42 is not at all consistent with the image of the Father that Jesus portrayed to us.  This is significant to me, because Jesus very clearly stated that if we have seen Him, then we have seen the Father.  From what was revealed to us in the person of Jesus Christ in scripture, I simply don't see Jesus bringing evil upon people.

Also, due to the lack of discussion of Satan in the OT, I can only conclude that many people in the OT simply were not aware of the existence of Satan.  The words "Satan" and "devil" appear 14 times in the OT.  Those same terms appear 66 times in the NT.  There are 12 more books in the OT than in the NT, yet Satan is mentioned nearly 5 times less throughout the entire OT.  Why?  And why did Jesus talk so much about the devil?

I'm no Bible scholar, but I believe the reason that Jesus spent so much time explaining how Satan was a liar, a thief, a killer, and a destroyer is because people at the time simply believed that everything that occurred was attributable to God.  I believe Jesus was correcting that misconception.

In any event, this is what I've come to believe after examining the story of Job in light of the revelation of the Father through Jesus Christ.

O0
I'm sorry that you read that to mean specifically you Pete.  I will break down my response to you on this a little later, (I hope), but I wanted to clarify that I was pointing to you there. 
I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.

jiminpa

Quote from: lovesblessing on February 11, 2011, 12:27:07 am
Context, context is so important when understanding scripture......also, it isn't a good idea to take one verse of scripture and make a doctrine out of it.....that is a bad habit that alot of religious folks love to do.....to a lot of folks misery, unfortunately....lol.....so here is what I have learned to do......

I look to see who it is that is talking or being written about....in the verse you asked about, please note that it is merely a recording of what the folks who came to visit Job and console him thought had happened in his life.....they had no revelation that there even was a devil.....all you have to do is read what his three friends thought was going on in his life......they didn't have a clue either, and God wasn't real pleased with how they were talking about Him either....just read chapter 42 from the beginning and you will see what I mean.   ;)
But this passage is in the voice of the narrator, who is ultimately the Holy Spirit, so I think it can be considered accurate.  The English may fall a little short of the real meaning though, since God does not bring evil on anyone. 
I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.

Pete

Quote from: jiminpa on February 11, 2011, 07:32:31 pm
I'm sorry that you read that to mean specifically you Pete.  I will break down my response to you on this a little later, (I hope), but I wanted to clarify that I was pointing to you there.


I think you must mean that you "wasn't" pointing to me there.  ;)

In any event, I look forward to reading what you have to say on this subject if you have the time.  I probably won't completely agree, but it would be such a refreshing change to be able to discuss this topic with someone who views it differently than I do in a respectful and polite manner, and you may be just the guy to do that!  ;D

O0
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

Andy S. Wright

Quote from: AudioArtist on February 10, 2011, 11:54:29 am
However one translates the underlined word, this passage states that it was God Himself (and not Satan) who brought the suffering on Job that we read in the book.

I've various commentaries and web pages exploring this, with most of them speaking of it in terms of God's sovereignty over everything that happens, His use of trials to make us grow in understanding, and His ability to use evil for a greater good. 

How would you guys understanding the passage? This isn't something that is causing me to stumble in my faith, nor do I have any theological agenda to push. I am just very open to any insights you might have and what the Spirit might be saying to you about this phrase in Job. I know that If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity occurs in a city has not the LORD done it? (Amos 3:6), and that God said: I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things (Isaiah 45:7). However, the passage in Job is different because it is a righteous man who is greatly afflicted and then even more greatly blessed by God, not a wicked people who are justly being punished by calamity.


Yep, Job was a righteous man, but he wasn't perfect.  If you want some insight into Job's mind before the trials, read Job 29 and pay attention to the number of personal pronouns in that single chapter as well as how Job describes his position in the community prior to his woes.  I believe the answer to your question lies in Job's soliloquy, God's response to Job's complaints in Job 38-41 and Job's confession in Job 42:5-6.  It's clear to me that Job had an "I" problem and God shares glory with no man.  Job's trials weren't a punishment.  They were tools used to introduce Himself to his 'perfect and upright man' in a much deeper way than Job had ever experienced him before.  Job's confession that he hated himself and repented is often misinterpreted in our post-modern, self-esteem driven society.  I believe Job saw himself through God's eyes, saw his pride, arrogance and ego-driven service, and hated what he saw.  This brought Job to a place of repentance and with repentance came healing, restoration, and blessing (2 Chronicles 7:14).

Just a few thoughts.  Do with them what you will.

ASW
Whatever doesn't kill you may make you stronger, but whatever does kill you will make you invincible. - 1 Samuel 17:37

DiscipleHeLovesToo

Here's how i understand this.  God gave Job authority in the earth through Adam (Gen 1:26).  Job yielded that authority to the devil through fear (Job 1:5; Job 3:25).  This fear gave the devil the right to approach God to accuse Job; but even though God knew that it was Job himself who had allowed the devil to get through his 'hedge of protection', God defended Job to the devil (Job 1:8; Job 2:3), and limited what the devil could do to him (Job 1:12; Job 2:6).  The authority that the devil used to afflict Job was the authority that God had delegated to Job.

Here in the US; people are allowed to carry firearms.  Sometimes people do things with those firearms that the US government never intended; yet the government is often held accountable, because US government gave people authority to have firearms to begin with.  There is no freedom without authority; and authority given to men not perfectly following God (which would include everyone except Jesus) is often perverted.

If God had not given Job authority in the earth, then Job's faith in the devil's ability to steal, kill and destroy (fear) would yield no power to the devil.  I think that the correct interpretation of Job 42:11 is that the people who came to Job to comfort him (after Job had put his faith back in the goodness of God, which turned Job's delegated authority back to good) thought that the evil Job suffered came from God - the writer of Job is relaying what the people thought; not what God inspired them to think. 

The subject of Job 42:11 is the people who came to Job; what they did (eat bread, bemoaned, comforted) and what THEY thought (the evil that the Lord had brought upon him).  It would be more clear if the words "that they thought" were included - 'and comforted him over all the evil that they thought the Lord had brought upon him'.

Otherwise, i see no way to harmonize this verse with Job's own confession in Job 3:25 that it was his own fear (not God) that brought evil upon him.


Joh 17:3  And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Hisgirl

Sooooo....I'm curious as to why you are investing your time trying to build a case against Father God. 


Robert, you know I love you.  How many times have I shared my supper with you at our table?  You should know that I respect you and think nothing but good about you.


But this seems to be a reoccuring theme.  Finding verses in the old testament that seem to make God look angry and wicked. 


Why?




"It's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it."  My Mama

jiminpa

Quote from: DiscipleHeLovesToo on February 16, 2011, 10:30:05 am
Here's how i understand this.  God gave Job authority in the earth through Adam (Gen 1:26).  Job yielded that authority to the devil through fear (Job 1:5; Job 3:25).  This fear gave the devil the right to approach God to accuse Job; but even though God knew that it was Job himself who had allowed the devil to get through his 'hedge of protection', God defended Job to the devil (Job 1:8; Job 2:3), and limited what the devil could do to him (Job 1:12; Job 2:6).  The authority that the devil used to afflict Job was the authority that God had delegated to Job.

Here in the US; people are allowed to carry firearms.  Sometimes people do things with those firearms that the US government never intended; yet the government is often held accountable, because US government gave people authority to have firearms to begin with.  There is no freedom without authority; and authority given to men not perfectly following God (which would include everyone except Jesus) is often perverted.

If God had not given Job authority in the earth, then Job's faith in the devil's ability to steal, kill and destroy (fear) would yield no power to the devil.  I think that the correct interpretation of Job 42:11 is that the people who came to Job to comfort him (after Job had put his faith back in the goodness of God, which turned Job's delegated authority back to good) thought that the evil Job suffered came from God - the writer of Job is relaying what the people thought; not what God inspired them to think. 

The subject of Job 42:11 is the people who came to Job; what they did (eat bread, bemoaned, comforted) and what THEY thought (the evil that the Lord had brought upon him).  It would be more clear if the words "that they thought" were included - 'and comforted him over all the evil that they thought the Lord had brought upon him'.

Otherwise, i see no way to harmonize this verse with Job's own confession in Job 3:25 that it was his own fear (not God) that brought evil upon him.
If everything we ever said in the midst of hardship came to pass, none of us would ever come through real trials.  The only way I see to conclude that Job brought that on himself is to amplify that one single verse to a proportion it doesn't have, and ignore a whole lot of the rest of scripture, including the first two chapters of Job. 

Sorry, but I really don't have the time to break down my views on Job the way I like, so I will have to summarize it.  I believe that God is more sovereign than a lot of WoF teachers allow, and that He always sets the limits on what we face, but that our definition of "bad" or "evil" are from a limited and selfish point of view.  What we call bad is sometimes very good in light of eternity, and sometimes God makes the devil deliver the gifts that He is setting before us.  That is a very simplified synopsis, but it's the best I can do right now.
I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.

Pete

Quote from: jiminpa on February 17, 2011, 11:02:58 pm
If everything we ever said in the midst of hardship came to pass, none of us would ever come through real trials.  The only way I see to conclude that Job brought that on himself is to amplify that one single verse to a proportion it doesn't have, and ignore a whole lot of the rest of scripture, including the first two chapters of Job. 


As someone who has predominantly WoF beliefs, I would agree with you that WoF teachers tend to amplify that one single verse.  However, I would also say that many others diminish that verse.

It's true that if everything we ever said came to pass, we'd be in a heap of trouble, but OTOH, Jesus said that we can have what we say.  So as usual, I think a balance needs to be struck.  On one end of the extreme, you have people who actually argue that they should have the right to complain and be negative.  On the other end of the extreme, you have people who are paranoid that if they said something negative, that means it must happen.

I tend to fall somewhere in the middle.  I don't think people should run around constantly speaking negative things, but I also think people should be able to be real.

Quote from: jiminpa on February 17, 2011, 11:02:58 pm
Sorry, but I really don't have the time to break down my views on Job the way I like, so I will have to summarize it.  I believe that God is more sovereign than a lot of WoF teachers allow, and that He always sets the limits on what we face, but that our definition of "bad" or "evil" are from a limited and selfish point of view.


I think this would be an interesting topic to discuss.  To summarize my belief, bad is bad is bad, and the devil is bad while God is good.  ;)


Quote from: jiminpa on February 17, 2011, 11:02:58 pm
What we call bad is sometimes very good in light of eternity, and sometimes God makes the devil deliver the gifts that He is setting before us.  That is a very simplified synopsis, but it's the best I can do right now.


I would disagree slightly.  I think what we call bad is almost certainly bad, but God is able to use what is meant to harm us for good.

I think that often times, people conclude that because something good resulted from something bad, that means that it really was good all along.  But I don't think that's the case at all.

For example, I've heard people testify that they were so thankful that God made them have a car accident, because they were able to witness to someone in the hospital bed next to them.  They conclude because a life was changed, that God mandated, caused, or otherwise commissioned their accident.  But I don't see it that way at all.

In the example with the car accident above (as with Job), Satan intended to kill, steal, and destroy, but God took that which was meant for evil and used it for good.  IOW, I don't believe that the bad things that are intended to harm us suddenly become "good" just because something good resulted from it.  I think it shows that God takes ALL things and works them together for the good of those who Love Him and are called according to His purpose.

O0
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

jiminpa

Pete, you and I are probably closer to agreement on this than not, with a few variations. 

My wife had been fighting viruses for over a month, (stomach virus and flu), and is now in Grove City hospital with pneumonia and sepsis, so I have been really squeezed for time.  That always seems to be the case when these discussions open up.  One day....
I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.

Pete

Quote from: jiminpa on February 18, 2011, 09:42:25 pm
Pete, you and I are probably closer to agreement on this than not, with a few variations. 


Yeah, I think so too.

Quote from: jiminpa on February 18, 2011, 09:42:25 pm
My wife had been fighting viruses for over a month, (stomach virus and flu), and is now in Grove City hospital with pneumonia and sepsis, so I have been really squeezed for time.  That always seems to be the case when these discussions open up.  One day....


I'm sorry to hear that, Jim.  You and your wife will be in my prayers.

O0
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

jiminpa

Thank you.  She's doing better, but I'm more pressed for time now than I had been before. 
I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God.

DiscipleHeLovesToo

It's only the things we say that we also believe in our hearts that have power - Mark 11:23.  When we have a change of heart and begin to say things based on belief in promises of good in God's word, we can reverse those bad things we said that we also believed in the heart.

God is sovereign, which means that no one can rule Him; but He's also set limits on Himself that allow people in living flesh bodies to reject that sovereignty in their own lives while they are on the earth; this is best exemplified by our choice over salvation.  It's clearly His will that all come to salvation (2Peter 3:9); yet we know that many will not (Mat 7:13, 14).  Only good things come from God (James 1:17, John 10:10), and I believe that God uses only His word to instruct us; not experience - bad or good (2Ti 3:15-1 - the leading of the Holy Spirit is always confirmed by the word of God that He brings to mind - John 14:26). 

There are three requirements that must be met in order for all things to work together for good in someone's life:

1. They must be led by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:23-26)
2. They must love God (Romans 8:28)
3. They must be called according to His purpose (Romans 8:28), which is to defeat the works of the devil (1John 3:8 ), and the works of the devil are to steal, kill and destroy (John 10:10).

To me, what it really comes down to is the love and goodness of God. 

  Matthew 7:9-11 KJV
(9) Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
(10) Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
(11) If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?


There are things in the Bible that seem to be examples of God using bad things to teach His children; I don't understand everything in the Bible to be sure - but I have come to an unshakable belief that God is always good - and those things in the Bible that seem to indicate by example that God may use bad things to teach us still must be reconciled with scriptures that clearly indicate that God is always good to His children; so when I see something in the word that seems to contradict this, I assume that there's an interpretation of those instances that I do not yet have. 

  James 1:5-7 KJV
(5) If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
(6) But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
(7) For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. (emphasis added) 

If I was to believe that God may be responsible for something bad in my life; how would I tell the difference between this and something bad that the devil is trying to bring into my life?  How could I be sure that faith in God's goodness can enable me to recieve power to overcome bad things if I don't know whether or not God is responsible?

GLY!!!
Joh 17:3  And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.