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November 21, 2019, 09:09:45 am

Spiritual Warfare vs. Freewill

Started by 8 iron, June 08, 2008, 01:00:17 pm

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8 iron

This thought came over my mind and spirit during worship. Our main commission in relation to others on earth is to love and preach the good news. Now, we all perceive that we're to advance the Kingdom.

So where does advancing the Kingdom of God cross someone's free will. Given our main goal is to evangelize and bring others into the Kingdom. We take ground through spiritual warfare. However, how does a person's free will, especially those not of the Kingdom come into play where we're taking this ground.

For example, a husband is not loving his wife and family as God has commanded. There's certain 'issues' the man has that has him in strongholds, say wrong patterns of thinking of things.

His wife recruits a prayer group to pray off these strongholds so the husband can break free of his wrong patterns of thinking. Now all the rebuking and casting will not affect this man's freewill. In other words, the prayer group is praying against this man's free will. He embraces these strongholds, demonic and wrong patterns.

So my question is, how does spiritual warfare and this man's free will affect the situation.

Hisgirl

I've seen prayers change someone's heart.  Where they suddenly had a 'revelation' and opened their eyes.  I've seen intercessory prayers unleash angelic intervention to where the person heard a voice, or had a dream. 

I do believe we can stand strong against the enemy on behalf of someone to where the enemy's hold is lessened and they can regain some sense of clear ears/eyes. 
"It's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it."  My Mama

8 iron

Is that not a violation of one's free will? If a person doesn't want to be saved, delivered and or what have you, then why would God intervene? God is the one that gives us a free will correct? Or is it that God predestined from the beginning this person would be delivered through the prayers of others?

flaglady

Because the revelation that was prayed in by the others can still be rejected. There is a point where the rubber hits the road - God can open the man's eyes, implant a revelation in his mind but he can still choose not to accept it. God will never force that upon anyone.

JTM³

Quote from: 8 iron on June 08, 2008, 01:00:17 pm
This thought came over my mind and spirit during worship. Our main commission in relation to others on earth is to love and preach the good news. Now, we all perceive that we're to advance the Kingdom.

So where does advancing the Kingdom of God cross someone's free will. Given our main goal is to evangelize and bring others into the Kingdom. We take ground through spiritual warfare. However, how does a person's free will, especially those not of the Kingdom come into play where we're taking this ground.

For example, a husband is not loving his wife and family as God has commanded. There's certain 'issues' the man has that has him in strongholds, say wrong patterns of thinking of things.

His wife recruits a prayer group to pray off these strongholds so the husband can break free of his wrong patterns of thinking. Now all the rebuking and casting will not affect this man's freewill. In other words, the prayer group is praying against this man's free will. He embraces these strongholds, demonic and wrong patterns.

So my question is, how does spiritual warfare and this man's free will affect the situation.


I heard Jesse Duplantis say something like this once: "I[God] won't break him, but his will is not as strong as my[God's] Word."



[spoiler]

Job got HEALED, and YOU can be too!!

Pro tip: Read to the END of the book. Not just man's ideas. They're usually wrong. =P

Jesus = The revealed will of God for all people for all time.
[/spoiler]

Pete

Quote from: 8 iron on June 08, 2008, 03:29:45 pm
Is that not a violation of one's free will? If a person doesn't want to be saved, delivered and or what have you, then why would God intervene? God is the one that gives us a free will correct? Or is it that God predestined from the beginning this person would be delivered through the prayers of others?

I don't think it's a violation of their free will, so much as it is them recognizing that their will isn't as important anymore.

To make it a little less spiritual, you can usually see this take place when someone gets married and starts a family.  Things that were part of "my will" suddenly took second place to things that were best for my wife and family.

Still, everyone has a choice whether they'll accept or reject God and His Kingdom, but I don't think it's wrong to sincerely pray for someone to break down those strongholds preventing them from seeing that they need God.
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

Pete

Quote from: JTM3 on June 08, 2008, 04:42:21 pm
I heard Jesse Duplantis say something like this once: "I[God] won't break him, but his will is not as strong as my[God's] Word."

I like that!

God's Love is stronger than our rebellion against Him and His will.
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

8 iron

I'm about to begin a personal study of what and how Paul prayed. A few notes of observation. It seems Paul's prayers have 2 primary focuses. One, is for his fellow brothers/sisters in Christ. Two, that the Gospel be preached to those who are willing to listen. Then we see another emphasis on praying against the evil forces that come against the Body of Christ.

I haven't begun my study yet, however, I've made an observation from previous studying of Paul's ministry. His prayer, especially with an emphasis on spiritual warfare seems to be focused against forces that might inhibit the preaching of the Gospel.

It's obvious Paul felt his job was to tell others of the good news. Then he let their free will dictate which path they choose to walk down. It seems to me he was more concerned about the Church or Body of Christ being inhibited from preaching the gospel rather than a person receiving it.

This brings the question. Should our focus, or spiritual warfare be on a broader range than most of the church perceives it can be on?

Truth

Quote from: 8 iron on June 08, 2008, 07:11:44 pm
It seems to me he was more concerned about the Church or Body of Christ being inhibited from preaching the gospel rather than a person receiving it.



They can't preach it if they are hindered from doing so . And people can't recieve something they have not heard. They don't have the faith to believe until they do hear.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


Quote from: 8 iron on June 08, 2008, 01:00:17 pm

So where does advancing the Kingdom of God cross someone's free will. Given our main goal is to evangelize and bring others into the Kingdom. We take ground through spiritual warfare. However, how does a person's free will, especially those not of the Kingdom come into play where we're taking this ground.


Some will never be saved because no one prayed against the demonic spirits that influence and blind them. Spiritual warfare and binding the spirits  frees the person from them so they can have a chance to make their own choice. Otherwise many time they don't have that choice. It can't be wrong to pray for their salvation when God said he is not willing that any should perish. So if we can pray that scripture we know we are praying according to His will.

The Lord is my banner

Quote from: Truth on May 08, 2009, 12:46:47 am


Some will never be saved because no one prayed against the demonic spirits that influence and blind them. Spiritual warfare and binding the spirits  frees the person from them so they can have a chance to make their own choice. Otherwise many time they don't have that choice. It can't be wrong to pray for their salvation when God said he is not willing that any should perish. So if we can pray that scripture we know we are praying according to His will.


Good post.

Yes, to pray for their freedom from evil influencing them is not removing freewill, it's restoring it to them by removing the deception and hindrance.


Hisgirl

Keeping in mind the stronghold is there by invitation and on legal ground, we can't rightly remove it....or the person would be worse off until the door was closed by their own repentance.  However, we can certainly begin praying and releasing that very thing they need.   

If someone is bent on anger, we can speak peace, love, acceptance, calm rivers to run through their heart, and pray the very things they don't have will flood their life.  Once they begin to 'come to their right mind' as the King out eating grass and the prodigal son....their own desire to change can bring them around to repentance.

^-^   Good posts all...   O0

"It's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it."  My Mama

DianeL

Paul's story is an amazing one.

Here is Paul, determined in his heart (manifesting his free will) to correct the error of the believers by killing them, putting them in prison, etc...

One encounter with Jesus, changed his theology.

I would like to think that the believers were praying for Paul. They all knew who he was.

Jesus did not mess with his free will, but one encounter (a real encounter) changed everything in Paul's life.

My aunt prayed for us for a few years before Jesus showed Himself real and melted our hearts (my family), it changed our theology.  :hugegrin:

My prayers usually don't involve extreme rebuking of devils influencing someone but that the King would show Himself real to them, then they can make an informed decision on whom they will serve.
34
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
35
By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another. John 13

Sarah

When I am praying for someone this is always what comes to mind......"The goodness of God brings men to repentance."
Embraced by the loving arms of the Father....

Balance

Quote from: 8 iron on June 08, 2008, 01:00:17 pm

For example, a husband is not loving his wife and family as God has commanded. There's certain 'issues' the man has that has him in strongholds, say wrong patterns of thinking of things.

His wife recruits a prayer group to pray off these strongholds so the husband can break free of his wrong patterns of thinking. Now all the rebuking and casting will not affect this man's freewill. In other words, the prayer group is praying against this man's free will. He embraces these strongholds, demonic and wrong patterns.



Peter had a different approach to the problem above.

1 Peter 3:1 Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, 2 when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear. 3 Do not let your adornment be merely outward--arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel-- 4 rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God. 5 For in this manner, in former times, the holy women who trusted in God also adorned themselves, being submissive to their own husbands, 6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, whose daughters you are if you do good and are not afraid with any terror.

At least in this example - I don't see instruction to call a group of believers to pray - but there is clear instruction to the wife on how to change her husband through her actions.

Just an observation.
Ego is the opiate that dulls the pain of being obviously stupid.

The Lord is my banner

The problem with that, Balance, is that the Christian wife of a husband who doesn't believe is then left feeling it's all her fault for being such a bad example of a Christian.

I sorely wish that verse wasn't there, but since it is, at least leaders ought to recognise that it requires a great deal of sensitivity when teaching it, and those wives need at least a modicum of support from their churches, which they pretty much never get.

And remember - for many, many atheist males the wife portrayed in that verse may not be particularly pleasing to him anyway, because the world doesn't work that way - a gentle and quiet spirit isn't usually on a worldly man's "shopping list" for a girl is it?

Oppsadaisy, did Sue just go off on a little rant?  :shifty:

Thankfully the Lord got through to me eventually, and I understood that my husband's salvation is ultimately between him and God, and I know He is able to keep that which I have entrusted to Him for that day.


Balance

Quote from: The Lord is my banner on May 08, 2009, 02:34:30 pm
The problem with that, Balance, is that the Christian wife of a husband who doesn't believe is then left feeling it's all her fault for being such a bad example of a Christian.

I sorely wish that verse wasn't there, but since it is, at least leaders ought to recognize that it requires a great deal of sensitivity when teaching it, and those wives need at least a modicum of support from their churches, which they pretty much never get.



That is why, at least in our church, we don't attack anyone in prayer.  Including the husband, but we do strengthen, edify and support people in need.  Whatever that need is.

I know I touched a nerve, and I apologize if you took exception to it, but those verses are just as "God Breathed" and anointed as any other. 
Ego is the opiate that dulls the pain of being obviously stupid.

The Lord is my banner

I'm glad your church is supportive Balance.

I know the scripture is anointed, it's just that it gets taken alone and out of context and used to bash unequally yoked wives, and it's not only fruitless, it's damaging.

Not your fault though, sorry!  :hug:


Truth

Quote from: DianeL on May 08, 2009, 09:46:10 am

My prayers usually don't involve extreme rebuking of devils influencing someone but that the King would show Himself real to them, then they can make an informed decision on whom they will serve.


That can work for some. But if they are deeply bound it could take more for them.

8 iron

Quote from: Balance on May 08, 2009, 01:42:06 pm

t least in this example - I don't see instruction to call a group of believers to pray - but there is clear instruction to the wife on how to change her husband through her actions.

Just an observation.



Yeah, that is a good observation. I agree, and that is my struggle sometimes. My behavior and actions don't line up with what I'm preaching so to speak.... :-[

8 iron

Quote from: Hisgirl on May 08, 2009, 09:37:12 am
Keeping in mind the stronghold is there by invitation and on legal ground, we can't rightly remove it....


I understand that and agree. However, do you believe we can temporarily 'bind' those spirits from individuals?

I like this discussion. I'm drawn into the thinking I need to pray for God to reveal Himself in love to those bound. Love conquers all correct?