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November 11, 2019, 09:04:49 pm

A Very Interesting Point....

Started by Leah, November 17, 2008, 12:18:46 am

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Pete

Quote from: leadworship on November 18, 2008, 03:41:18 pm
I say it's a non issue because forgiveness is not involved, the way I see it.  Lucifer broke a law, and is punished.  End of story - Do judges hold unforgiveness because they send people to jail when they break the law?  That's what I meant by it being a non-forgiveness issue, and I agree, God harbors to unforgiveness or ill will towards anyone or thing.


Ah...  That makes more sense now, and I see where you're coming from.

But in your analogy, the judge may not have been the one that was wronged.  So when they hand out a sentence, they have no personal interest, and therefore, forgiveness is not required of them.

In the case with Satan, Satan went directly against God.  True, God is the righteous Judge, but going back to the analogy of judges in our court system, let's say that a judge's child were murdered, and (I know this would never happen, but stick with me in hypothetical land for a moment ) they were the judge in the trial of the murderer.  Now that judge would be in the right in sentencing the murderer for violating the law, but another aspect enters in now, because it was the judge that was wronged.  No longer is he simply rendering judgment, but it is also now up to him to decide whether or not he is going to forgive the unrepentant murderer or not.

See what I mean?   Anyway, that's my crazy train of thought here.
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

leadworship

I see your point, and I agree, it's a mess of a thought process getting through it, but for some reason I view God as impartial in this case.  True it was Him that was wronged, but even with us there are consequences for reviling His authority.  However I cannot assume that God feels or will feel remorse for the destruction of Lucifer.  His creation and death, and every other angel or spiritual being, to my knowledge does not include a plan of forgiveness and therefore forgiveness wouldn't be a factor in their equation. 

In the example you elaborated on, I would say that God the Father was an impartial judge, judging by the letter of His Authority, and that Holy Spirit was grieved.  I would not say that there was any room or place for unforgiving - especially when the result of one's actions is understood before the action has taken place.  I could be stretching it too far here, but I still don't think forgiveness is even an issue between God and Satan.  lol  I'm such a hard head sometimes

Pete

"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

leadworship

  Like so many other things we have in common, eh!  We're just two peas on a pod!  A God pod!!

churchlady

Quote from: Pete on November 18, 2008, 01:27:13 pm
It sounds weird, it makes our minds go tilt, and it makes people leave our church screaming loudly as they go.

But consider the alternative;  Is God harboring unforgiveness toward Satan?


For forgiveness to be available to anyone, there had to be a satisfaction of God's just nature through the blood atonement.  That is the only reason that even WE have available to us, forgiveness.  The blood of Jesus was shed for MANkind. 

There is no indication anywhere in the Word that the blood was shed for angels.  IMO, your church has opened itself to something that is not supported in scripture at all.  That is quite dangerous.
De Oppresso Liber

Pete

It is amazing to me how one single statement can change the opinion from...

Quote from: churchlady
I knew you would handle it well, but what I didn't expect was how you would bring in the mandate on love (from scriptures) and insist on THAT being the plumb line of what was tolerated.

Kudos to you my friend!!  A rare one, you are. 


to...

Quote from: churchlady on November 18, 2008, 10:49:05 pm

IMO, your church has opened itself to something that is not supported in scripture at all.  That is quite dangerous.


...in just 3 short months.

Note that this is the same church that has helped to mold me into the "rare one" with a mandate for His Love.  Also note that the point Sarah posted about God having forgiven Satan is something we discussed briefly at church more than a year ago.

This is not a dogmatic point for me, as my discourse with leadworship has shown.  It is something that I (and my church) dared to explore.  It's not "dangerous" to ask the difficult question, does God harbor unforgiveness toward Satan.

Again, I'm not talking about Jesus' shed blood for redemption of Satan.  I am not advocating that Satan will repent, nor am I advocating that because of God's forgiveness, Satan will somehow escape the consequences of his actions.  I am talking about simple forgiveness.  There was no requirement of Jesus' shed blood to forgive.  In fact, Jesus commanded His disciples to forgive 70 x 7, BEFORE He went to the cross.  If His blood atonement was a requirement for them to be able to forgive, He would have been asking them to do something impossible for them to do.

So if God IS Love, and Love keeps no records of wrongs, how can God harbor unforgiveness toward Satan?

Note that all of what I've just posted finds plenty of support in scripture.

In any event, that's the "dangerous" question that we've dared to explore.  I'm open to discussion and hearing other's thoughts, but I'd prefer to do it without snap judgments on my church.[/SIZE]
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

Wordsmith

November 19, 2008, 01:07:01 am #46 Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 01:25:01 am by Wordsmith
I think we can hope for alot of things as far as the devil being forgiven. We can make things fit because it makes everyone feel good. But scripture spacificly says that the angels that left their first estate are reserved unto "everlasting chains" until judgement of eternal fire as is the people of Sodom and Gomorrha

Jud 1:6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jud 1:7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


Now if God is going to extend grace and mercy to the devil, what about all the rest?
Be as loving as the Truth allows, even if it's
mis-interpreted,
because everyone  you meet is fighting
some kind of battle.

Pete

Quote from: Wordsmith on November 19, 2008, 01:07:01 am
I think we can hope for alot of things as far as the devil being forgiven. We can make things fit because it makes everyone feel good.


I would have to disagree.  Thinking that God has forgiven Satan doesn't make everyone feel good.  It's offensive.  How could God forgive such an incredible act of betrayal and defiance?  That doesn't make us feel good at all, because if there is Truth in it, it makes our grudges and offenses seem highly insignificant.

Quote from: Wordsmith on November 19, 2008, 01:07:01 am

But scripture spacificly says that the angels that left their first estate are reserved unto "everlasting chains" until judgement of eternal fire as is the people of Sodom and Gomorrha

Jud 1:6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jud 1:7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


Now if God is going to extend grace and mercy to the devil, what about all the rest?


Who said anything about grace and mercy being extended to the devil?  Who said anything about Jesus' blood being shed for angels?

What we have here is a failure to communicate.  I am not talking about the remission of Satan's sin.  I am not talking about grace and mercy.  I am talking about simple forgiveness.

That's probably why this sounds "dangerous" to some people, because I'm not saying anything remotely like the "dangerous" things that are being proposed.

Does God harbor unforgiveness toward Satan?  I say no.  leadworship says that forgiveness was not even an issue for the reasons he stated.  But AGAIN....

Quote from: Pete on November 19, 2008, 12:00:58 am

Again, I'm not talking about Jesus' shed blood for redemption of Satan.  I am not advocating that Satan will repent, nor am I advocating that because of God's forgiveness, Satan will somehow escape the consequences of his actions.  I am talking about simple forgiveness.  There was no requirement of Jesus' shed blood to forgive.  In fact, Jesus commanded His disciples to forgive 70 x 7, BEFORE He went to the cross.  If His blood atonement was a requirement for them to be able to forgive, He would have been asking them to do something impossible for them to do.



I fully believe that Satan will face judgment and the consequences of his actions, because I believe that the blood of Jesus was NOT for redemption of sin, or grace and mercy to be shown to Satan, but to mankind, born of water and of the Spirit.

So I can't answer the hypothetical question based on the premise of something that I don't believe at all.
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

The Lord is my banner

 
Quote from: Pete on November 19, 2008, 08:57:58 am
I fully believe that Satan will face judgment and the consequences of his actions, because I believe that the blood of Jesus was NOT for redemption of sin, or grace and mercy to be shown to Satan, but to mankind, born of water and of the Spirit.


Agreed.


But...

There is one scripture that implies that Jesus' blood has bought peace for more than mankind. 
What do we do with this?

Colossians 1:19,20 says of Jesus:




For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,

andthrough him to reconcile to himself all things,
whether things on earthor things in heaven,
by making peace through his blood, shed on thecross.

Reconciliation and peace for ALL things?!   


Wordsmith

November 19, 2008, 02:09:08 pm #49 Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 02:51:33 pm by Wordsmith
QuoteI fully believe that Satan will face judgment and the consequences of his actions, because I believe that the blood of Jesus was NOT for redemption of sin, or grace and mercy to be shown to Satan, but to mankind, born of water and of the Spirit.


IF you find it offensive to feel good about the possiblity that God would restore the fallen part of His government,  I just don't know why. It wasn't meant to offend anybody, Pete.  Only in the plan of redemption is found forgiveness. They type of forgiveness where comitted offenses aren't remembered anymore. I was asking how can there be forgiveness for Satan, and still remember those offenses, and know by scripture that the prince of this world has already been judged. God was being a just judge. Then I'm saying that forgiveness was not an issue with God, in the case of Satan.
Be as loving as the Truth allows, even if it's
mis-interpreted,
because everyone  you meet is fighting
some kind of battle.

Pete

Quote from: Wordsmith on November 19, 2008, 02:09:08 pm
IF you find it offensive to feel good about the possiblity that God would restore the fallen part of His government,  I just don't know why. It wasn't meant to offend anybody, Pete.


I wasn't offended by anything you said.  What I was trying to say is that people may tend to find offensive the idea that God would forgive Satan.

Quote from: Wordsmith on November 19, 2008, 02:09:08 pm
Only in the plan of redemption is found forgiveness.


Was anyone forgiven before Jesus shed His blood for us?  Did Jesus not tell His disciples to forgive those who sinned against them BEFORE He went to the cross?

I think the big reason we're having this discussion is because it keeps coming up that it is only the plan of redemption that forgiveness can exist.  But I'm not talking about forgiveness unto salvation.  I am talking about simple forgiveness, like when someone does something wrong against you, is unrepentant, and you still forgive them.  It has nothing to do with salvation or redemption.  It has nothing to do with grace and/or mercy.  It has to do with simple forgiveness.

Quote from: Wordsmith on November 19, 2008, 02:09:08 pmThey type of forgiveness where comitted offenses aren't remembered anymore. I was asking how can there be forgiveness for Satan, and still remember those offenses, and know by scripture that the prince of this world has already been judged. God was being a just judge. Then I'm saying that forgiveness was not an issue in the case of Satan.


And that marries up with what leadworship was saying. I'm not claiming to have a full revelation or understanding of this.  But what I am simply trying to say is that unforgiveness does not exist in God toward anything.  That is my only point in this whole discourse.

I think we would agree that unforgiveness does not exist in God.  Where we seem to differ is that while I say the reason unforgiveness doesn't exist in God is because Satan is forgiven, the other point of view is that forgiveness wasn't required at all, and so therefore, there is no unforgiveness in God.

In any event, it's all an academic discussion.  The end result?  We agree that there is no unforgiveness in God, and Satan will face the consequences of his actions.

"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

Wordsmith

November 19, 2008, 04:32:30 pm #51 Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 10:14:52 pm by Wordsmith
QuoteI think we would agree that unforgiveness does not exist in God.



I don't agree with that either. If you blaspheme the Holy Spirit you will not be forgiven. In this
life or in the next.
I don't believe that God is just a state of being of complete forgivness without thought and discision making abilities.
For that matter satan did blaspheme the Holy Spirit by trying to userp Gods authority. He chose
to do this all on his own, without temptation of an outside source to be tempted. That's what being the epidome of iniquity without help, or temptation can be.
Be as loving as the Truth allows, even if it's
mis-interpreted,
because everyone  you meet is fighting
some kind of battle.

Pete

Quote from: Wordsmith on November 19, 2008, 04:32:30 pm

I don't agree with that either.



Then do you believe that God has commanded us to forgive the unrepentant, while He does not do that Himself, or do you believe that there are times when we too should withhold our forgiveness, or is the belief that it's because we're talking about Satan instead of man, the rules are different?

Quote from: Wordsmith on November 19, 2008, 04:32:30 pm
If you blaspheme the Holy Spirit you will not be forgiven. In this life or in the next.


I'm not sure that any of us understand what that actually means.  In the simplest of definitions, blaspheme simply means to speak of or address with irreverence.  Going by that definition, we're all screwed.

Jesus said it, so it must be True.  But what does it really mean to "blaspheme the Holy Spirit"?

Quote from: Wordsmith on November 19, 2008, 04:32:30 pm
I don't believe that God is just a state of being of complete forgivness without thought and discision making abilities.


And here we go again...  I never even implied that God was without thought and/or decision making abilities.
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

Wordsmith

Quote from: Pete on November 19, 2008, 04:58:11 pm
Then do you believe that God has commanded us to forgive the unrepentant, while He does not do that Himself, or do you believe that there are times when we too should withhold our forgiveness, or is the belief that it's because we're talking about Satan instead of man, the rules are different?

I'm not sure that any of us understand what that actually means.  In the simplest of definitions, blaspheme simply means to speak of or address with irreverence.  Going by that definition, we're all screwed.

Jesus said it, so it must be True.  But what does it really mean to "blaspheme the Holy Spirit"?

And here we go again...  I never even implied that God was without thought and/or decision making abilities.


I never said you said those things Pete.. I said I don't think. I was trying to explain the difference in humanity being deceived, and Satan was not. That's all. And that I don't believe that God is totally absent of the ability to not forgive concerning the devil. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit,  if Satan didn't commit it, then I have no idea what it would take to say what it consists of. I would think that creating war in Heaven against all that's Holy would be a good start.
Be as loving as the Truth allows, even if it's
mis-interpreted,
because everyone  you meet is fighting
some kind of battle.

Pete

Quote from: Wordsmith on November 19, 2008, 05:06:11 pm

I never said you said those things Pete.. I said I don't think. I was trying to explain the difference in humanity being deceived, and Satan was not. That's all.


Gotcha. 

Quote from: Wordsmith on November 19, 2008, 05:06:11 pm
And that I don't believe that God is totally absent of the ability to not forgive concerning the devil. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit if Satan didn't commit it, then I have no idea what it would take to say what it consists of. I would think that creating war in Heaven against all that's Holy would be a good start.



I understand, and those are good thoughts.

I apologize for my unnecessarily defensive posts in this thread.  I must confess, much of my response is probably tainted by real life experiences of people who have said nasty things about me, my family and my church family.

I appreciate and thank you for taking the time to explain to me what you believe and why.  You've given me lots to think about.
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

The Lord is my banner

Quote from: The Lord is my banner on November 19, 2008, 10:07:29 am

Colossians 1:19,20

Reconciliation and peace for ALL things?!   


Just throwing this in again to see if anyone notices! 


Pete

Quote from: The Lord is my banner on November 19, 2008, 05:15:28 pm
Just throwing this in again to see if anyone notices! 


My thoughts at the moment?




"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."


Wordsmith

QuotePete..I apologize for my unnecessarily defensive posts in this thread.  I must confess, much of my response is probably tainted by real life experiences of people who have said nasty things about me, my family and my church family.


I understand fully, been there myself. Thank you so much.
Be as loving as the Truth allows, even if it's
mis-interpreted,
because everyone  you meet is fighting
some kind of battle.

Wordsmith

Quote from: The Lord is my banner on November 19, 2008, 05:15:28 pm
Just throwing this in again to see if anyone notices! 



Oh, man...I'm getting a headache LOL....All things huh?
Be as loving as the Truth allows, even if it's
mis-interpreted,
because everyone  you meet is fighting
some kind of battle.