• Welcome, Guest. Please login.
November 13, 2019, 07:31:21 am

A Very Interesting Point....

Started by Leah, November 17, 2008, 12:18:46 am

Previous topic - Next topic

Pete

I presume you're referring to this scripture;

Mark 11:25-26 (AMP)
25 And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him and let it drop (leave it, let it go), in order that your Father Who is in heaven may also forgive you your [own] failings and shortcomings and let them drop. 26 But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your failings and shortcomings.

But think about this.  If I am holding on to offense, I am in sin.  Unrepentant sin.  I may not realize it, but by harboring unforgiveness in my heart, I am sinning.

God's forgiveness is always right there, just waiting for us to repent.  He's standing there, like the father in the parable of the prodigal son, watching for us, while we are still afar off, to see any indication of our repentance, so that He may run to us and embrace us.

It's our choice.  We can choose to harbor unforgiveness, or we can choose to "leave it, let it go", and accept His forgiveness.  But it still boils down to the fact that it is our choice whether or not we RECEIVE His forgiveness, which was provided by Jesus.

Also, consider this;

John 20:23 (AMP)
[Now having received the Holy Spirit, and being led and directed by Him] if you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of anyone, they are retained.

This is an interesting passage of scripture.  It seems to be saying that if WE forgive sins (as being led and directed by the Holy Spirit to do so), that they are forgiven.  Think about that!  As directed by the Holy Spirit, we can forgive sins, or hold them against people.

leadworship had some very good thoughts on this scripture.  Maybe he'll pop in and share them. 
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

Pete

"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

Leah

The apostasy is the falling away of what God has ordained and falling away from truth.

leadworship

Quote from: Pete on November 17, 2008, 07:41:00 pm

John 20:23 (AMP)
[Now having received the Holy Spirit, and being led and directed by Him] if you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of anyone, they are retained.

This is an interesting passage of scripture.  It seems to be saying that if WE forgive sins (as being led and directed by the Holy Spirit to do so), that they are forgiven.  Think about that!  As directed by the Holy Spirit, we can forgive sins, or hold them against people.

leadworship had some very good thoughts on this scripture.  Maybe he'll pop in and share them. 


That I do!  I'll be back tonight or tomorrow with a response - and a report on what I believe Holy Spirit has revealed to me in this verse.

God Bless you ALL!!

Sarah

Embraced by the loving arms of the Father....

The Lord is my banner

Quote from: leadworship on November 17, 2008, 11:24:49 pm


That I do!  I'll be back tonight or tomorrow with a response - and a report on what I believe Holy Spirit has revealed to me in this verse.

God Bless you ALL!!


Look forward to that, because it's a bit of a puzzling verse.

And Pete, as you say, we repent and we forgive as led by the Spirit, but sometimes we haven't reached that point yet - we haven't heard from Him or we've stumbled and not been able to quite sort it - yet we're still in His grace. 

We don't get whopped on the head every time we sin, even though we don't repent within 30 seconds, so how do we account for the process, the time taken, between sin and repentance, between offence and forgiveness?  Surely we're not to interpret this scripture to mean that if we struggle to forgive, or blunder along for a bit in sin and haven't yet repented, that we're under judgement and would not be forgiven ourselves? 
It doesn't make sense, yet that's how it appears.

Sigh.  The Bible seems more full than ever of difficult, difficult things that I once thought I "got" but now see I never really understood.  It wearies me.


Sarah

Quote from: The Lord is my banner on November 18, 2008, 04:04:43 am


Sigh.  The Bible seems more full than ever of difficult, difficult things that I once thought I "got" but now see I never really understood.  It wearies me.


You aren't the only one to feel this way.  Once you get a revelation on one thing it opens the door to [10] more.  We are loved!
Embraced by the loving arms of the Father....

leadworship

Ok, that wonderful verse in John that is rarely ever discussed,

John 20:23 (AMP)
[Now having received the Holy Spirit, and being led and directed by Him] if you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of anyone, they are retained.

I love the way the Amplified Bible puts it - being led and directed by Him.  I was at my father's house one night and we started discussing things, of a variety of sorts, and this came up.  "What does it mean, do you think?"   Well I said, in the off chance of sounding heretical, that we can forgive sins.  I mean, it says IF YOU FORGIVE, not if you ask for forgiveness for one's sins and it doesn't say sins against YOU.  It says SINS.  Of course it would have to be at the Spirit's prompting ( we were reading NASB and ESV at the time, not pulled out the AMP yet).  "Would that be so bad, do you think?"  Well, no, so long as I know and remember it's Christ within me doing the forgiving, not just myself, but forgiving - wouldn't that be just kinda wrong to speak out?

This is where we took what we wanted to know, and found scriptural evidence to support or deny it. 

Well, forgiveness is imparted, or given, right?  Can we not impart things to people?  Wisdom for example?

1 Cor 2:6

6
Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away.


Hmm, yeah, why not?  I believe healing can be imparted, wisdom can - that's Biblical - so why not forgiveness?  That still just sounds wierd to think about.  I know that I hear clearly from Holy Spirit, and I know when and what He's saying, but can I REALLY know that He'd use ME to forgive someone's sins?  That still sounds "iffy".

Ok, logical reasonings then.  Christ was man.  We are His brothers, men.  God used  Holy Spirit to impower Jesus - even Jesus said He would do nothing unless the Father in Heaven command it.  But HOW CAN WE KNOW that the Father in Heaven is commanding us to forgive someone's sins, per se'?  To do that, we'd have to know what the Father is thinking, and we can't do that... can we? My comments in Green.

1 Cor 2:9-16
9
But, as it is written,
[BLOCKQUOTE]
"What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
   nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him"--
[/BLOCKQUOTE]
Now we've all heard that before.  It's been used in sermons to show how awesome God is!  So much that we can't ever imagine how wonderful those things are!!  Right!!!???.... WRONG!  Read on:


10
these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. WHOA!!!?!?!? For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
11
For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Right there... did you see it?  "no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God".  Do we have that spirit?


12
Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. Aparently so!!
13
And we impart this (understanding) in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths (like in John 20:23) to those who are spiritual.


14
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
15
The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
16
"For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

Hallelujah!  We have the MIND OF CHRIST!!

Ok.  So, we see now that we CAN know what the Father's thinking, what His mind is on a matter, because we have been filled with the Holy Spirit, we are taught by Holy Spirit, and our minds do not discern these things, nevertheless we are to have the mind of Christ on it.  So, I ask, is it so far fetched that God would prompt us to tell someone, "Your sins are forgiven you, be healed, go and sin no more."?? No, my friends, it is not.


Now, after you let that sink it - it can take days or months - and after you sheepishly discuss it with a few "trusted" friends in Christ to get their input, what do you do with it?  I mean, I can imagine praying at night and saying "God please forgive their sins" but that's kinda not what John 20:23 is saying.  It doesn't say, If you ASK forgiveness for one's sins.  It's saying IF YOU FORGIVE them.  By this time my dad and I were giggling like little school kids - then the depth of it hit me.  It was as if God dropped a bomb in my spirit and shattered the boundaries I've lived it.  I looked at my dad and said, "Wait - do you realize what this means?  Do you REALLY realize what this means?"  Dad said that God showed him this several years back, but he felt awkward with it and never shared it with people because of the negative reaction and stance people would take with it.  "Dad, have YOU ever forgiven anyone for sins, not committed against you?"  Laughing he said, "No!  I hadn't talked with anyone about it - I wasn't sure of it."

"Dad, this is deep.  What does sin do?"
"It hinders our prayers and ..."
"Right - it restricts communication with God.  It hinders our ability to recieve from Him."
"Yeah, ..."
"What if, the greatest tool the enemy has at his disposal is that we are afraid to use this verse.  We have been blinded by fear of what others might think and say.  We would shake the FOUNDATIONS OF HELL if we started forgiving sins and allowing God to flow freely through someone at that point in time!  This could change the WORLD Dad!!"

We sat in joyful silence as we pondered the magnitude - and he quietly said, "Now you see why I've not said anything.  It's not my place to, God hadn't released me to.  This night is no accident.  We're two men, brothers in Christ flowing in the Holy Spirit letting Him reveal things to us.  You go to your Pastor (his too) and see what he says."  I never do anything in church without my Pastor's full knowledge, and I wanted to start doing this asap - under the condition that it was when and only when HS told me to. 

The only report I wish to give at this time is this:  A few weeks ago my daughter, 4, was struggling sleeping.  She had some nasty congestion and her nose got all runny/stuffy when she laid down.  It was just me and her, and she likes to fall asleep while I pray in tongues quietly in her ear.  I began to pray then I felt the desire to pray for her sinuses.  I did, thanked Jesus for healing her and laid that prayer of faith.  Then, in an instant HS showed me that she was in sin.  She was openly defiant that day to her mom and knew what she was doing wrong.  My heart ached for her, then HS said, "Forgive her sins".  Immediately I said, "Emma, your sins are forgiven by the blood of Jesus Christ.  Holy Spirit, send healing on your wings, and clear her nose, in Jesus most holy and precious Name."  30 seconds later Emma sat up and said, "Dad, I have GOOD air in my nose."  She laid down, sleepily, rolled over breathing in deeply through her nose, "I have good air in my nose daddy, I love you."

God is powerful, and His mysteries are revealed to us through Holy Spirit.  Do nothing unless God leads you to, and His will shall be done.

churchlady

Sorry guys, I don't think the scriptures back up the belief that Satan has been offered forgiveness.

Jesus took on Himself the likeness of MAN, not the Devil, to go to the cross as ADAM'S substitute.  He became thereafter, the second Adam, not the second Lucifer.

This is the day of salvation for all of mankind, not all of mankind and demonkind.  The gospel is being preached in all the world to every nation, every tribe so that those who will can be saved.  It says nothing about the gospel being the power of God unto salvation to the fallen angels, but to the sons of men.

The Church is made up of the spiritual descendents of Abraham, and there are no demons among them, including Satan.

I'd have to see some clear evidence from scripture before I'd think differently.
De Oppresso Liber

Pete

That is some POWERFUL stuff, Bob!  Thank you so much for sharing it with us!
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

Pete

Quote from: churchlady on November 18, 2008, 12:50:06 pm
Sorry guys, I don't think the scriptures back up the belief that Satan has been offered forgiveness.


It sounds weird, it makes our minds go tilt, and it makes people leave our church screaming loudly as they go.

But consider the alternative;  Is God harboring unforgiveness toward Satan?
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

The Lord is my banner

 
Leadworship, that is an awesome testimony!   

And Pete, that is some reaction in your church!

Quote from: Pete on November 18, 2008, 01:27:13 pm
It sounds weird, it makes our minds go tilt, and it makes people leave our church screaming loudly as they go.

But consider the alternative;  Is God harboring unforgiveness toward Satan?


Sarah

Oh Bob!  Thank you so much for sharing that.  That is so deep and awesome!  I just wanna do a little dance.


Embraced by the loving arms of the Father....

leadworship

Thanks guys!  Oh, and Sarah, it makes me wanna dance too!!


In regards to the devil boi, I think we're barking up the wrong tree.  How can a loving God hate?  He does however, he hates sin.  I agree too, that forgiveness unto salvation is only for we humans.  If you recall Jesus said:

John 3:5  ESV

5
Jesus answered, <WOJ>"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.</WOJ>


We humans are born of water at first birth, and of Spirit in our second birth.  Lucifer was an angel, which to my knowledge were created by God and not born of water.  Therefore he cannot enter the kingdom of God.  Now, in regards to the question "Does God have unforgiveness towards Satan?" I would say that it's a non-issue.  The facts are, God has established his authority in the heavens and on earth.  When you break or revile His authority you pay the price.  Some say, "well my God won't punish someone for eternity just for sinning or not accepting Jesus.  My God is a God of Love."  I say, "All Satan did was want to put his desires over God's, and he was not only banished from heaven (remember the CHIEF angel), but he will be destroyed for it!"  When was the last time you put your desires over God's?  Same thing, but we have Jesus who offered up his blood for our atonement.  God killed MANY people in the old testament - does he offer them forgiveness?  I say no, because they reviled his law and paid the price.  There's not forgiveness needed - you break it you bought it, if you catch my drift.  I think it's niether right nor wrong, simply ungrounded trains of thought.  Remember, you must start with God's Authority as a foundation, and go up from there.

leadworship

November 18, 2008, 03:26:05 pm #34 Last Edit: November 18, 2008, 03:36:27 pm by leadworship
One more comment on John 20:23:  How often did Jesus forgive sins - as often or moreso than he healed people?  Think about it - which is the greater, or are they tied together? 

As for the latter part of that verse, I am still praying for revelation and instruction on when it would apply.  I struggle with the notion to withhold forgiveness from people, however we have that jurisdiction if led so by Holy Spirit.  How awesome is that - that we might be integral in forgiveness that shoots directly to the throne of grace breaking every blockage and detour on the way up.  Amazing!

leadworship

Also, for your viewing pleasure and edited out, here's how another member at those other forums views Satan in regards to this whole mess.  I plucked this from a cherry bush, confronted on it and got no response.  I removed names for anonymity sake, but you might easily guess who it is.

User: It started out as this unfortunate incident and it just grew from there.
Friend:
why do Satan and God never try talking then, to "work things out'?
User:
The more Lucifer tried to get to the bottom of it, the worse They blew Him off
User:
Because God can "never be wrong".
User:
His way of talking it out is to "show Lucifer the error of his thoughts"
User:
Not to listen and understand and just say He is SORRY -- because God never apologizes.
User:
Because God is perfect and believes He does no wrong
User:
And needs everyone else to believe it too
Friend:
but you do not believe it?
User:
[Well according to conventional theology,] He would rather torture Lucifer for eternity and then destroy this beautiful, most beautiful of all archangels, then simply admit He had ANY part in causing Lucifer's pain
Friend:
Wow. I don't know what to say
User: Well now you know the Family Business. L . O . L.


Makes me want to puke.

Pete

Quote from: leadworship on November 18, 2008, 03:18:37 pm
"Does God have unforgiveness towards Satan?" I would say that it's a non-issue.


But what makes you say it's a non-issue?  I'm curious, because I think it's a valid question.

I think that the issue is getting somewhat confused.  I'm not trying to say that Satan has received forgiveness unto salvation, but what I am saying is that God can not harbor unforgiveness.

In any event, this is all sort of an academic discussion anyway.  The end result for Satan is the same in both scenarios.

"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

Pete

Quote from: leadworship on November 18, 2008, 03:30:50 pm
Also, for your viewing pleasure and edited out, here's how another member at those other forums views Satan in regards to this whole mess.  I plucked this from a cherry bush, confronted on it and got no response.  I removed names for anonymity sake, but you might easily guess who it is.

User: It started out as this unfortunate incident and it just grew from there.
Friend:
why do Satan and God never try talking then, to "work things out'?
User:
The more Lucifer tried to get to the bottom of it, the worse They blew Him off
User:
Because God can "never be wrong".
User:
His way of talking it out is to "show Lucifer the error of his thoughts"
User:
Not to listen and understand and just say He is SORRY -- because God never apologizes.
User:
Because God is perfect and believes He does no wrong
User:
And needs everyone else to believe it too
Friend:
but you do not believe it?
User:
[Well according to conventional theology,] He would rather torture Lucifer for eternity and then destroy this beautiful, most beautiful of all archangels, then simply admit He had ANY part in causing Lucifer's pain
Friend:
Wow. I don't know what to say
User: Well now you know the Family Business. L . O . L.


Makes me want to puke.




Um...  That's a bit...  odd...
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

leadworship

I say it's a non issue because forgiveness is not involved, the way I see it.  Lucifer broke a law, and is punished.  End of story - Do judges hold unforgiveness because they send people to jail when they break the law?  That's what I meant by it being a non-forgiveness issue, and I agree, God harbors to unforgiveness or ill will towards anyone or thing.

Pete

Quote from: leadworship on November 18, 2008, 03:26:05 pm
One more comment on John 20:23:  How often did Jesus forgive sins - as often or moreso than he healed people?  Think about it - which is the greater, or are they tied together? 

As for the latter part of that verse, I am still praying for revelation and instruction on when it would apply.  I struggle with the notion to withhold forgiveness from people, however we have that jurisdiction if led so by Holy Spirit.  How awesome is that - that we might be integral in forgiveness that shoots directly to the throne of grace breaking every blockage and detour on the way up.  Amazing!


This is definitely something to think on.  I think you've got some great revelation here!

:2thumbs:
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."