A Very Interesting Point....

Started by Leah, November 17, 2008, 12:18:46 am

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Leah

A coworker and I were having a good conversation today about christianity. And she said something I thought was really interesting. I said that all sins, from the smallest to the biggest, have been crucified on the cross. Therefore, don't think you're better than someone else just because you don't do those bad things others do or do greater things than everyone else. She agreed and said "If you're going to act like you're a better christian than everyone else, then you yourself should also live up to those standards." (She wasn't saying that to me, but about people who have this I'm-better-than-you attitude).


I never thought of it that way.

The apostasy is the falling away of what God has ordained and falling away from truth.

Sarah

Yes it is, and I totally agree.  Sin doesn't have a degree, it just is.

Another thing that relates is that God has forgiven Satan too.  This is a tough one but I am really working it out so I can do these things better.
Embraced by the loving arms of the Father....

The Lord is my banner

Quote from: Sarah on November 17, 2008, 12:22:46 am

Another thing that relates is that God has forgiven Satan too. 


Interesting idea, can you explain how you know this?  I have another friend who believes something like that, and I thought she was the only one!   I think she gets a fair bit of stick for it too.


sharonl

Yes, Sarah - I would like to know a little more about this also.

If Satan is forgiven then why would he be thrown into the lake of fire in the end times? I know that God can forgive but I can't imagine a forgiven person being thrown into the pit of hell for eternity.

Anxious to hear more about this.
Diamonds From Heaven - help for the hurting heart
http://gentle.org/sites/diamonds/
Beautiful gifts - the men love them http://chopsknives.com

j4gong

God has forgiven, the reason Satan is going to be thrown into the pit is because he has never repented. Satan doesn't believe that he is wrong. You don't have to ask God to forgive you before he does. He automatically does, because he is love and the Bible says that love covers a multitude of sins. We ask God to forgive us as an act of repentance. Hope this helps and makes sense.
Our Father who is in Heaven, holy is your name. Your kingdom come Your will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven! Thank you God for all the wonderful blessings in my life.

Pete

Good points, j4.

Satan is not going to repent.  The Bible tells us this. 

So think about Jesus at Calvary.  Here stands our Savior, being falsely accused, stripped of His clothing, beaten unjustly, mocked, scorned....  and He says to the men that are doing this to Him, "Father, forgive them...."  These men were not the least bit repentant.  And yet Jesus says, amazingly, forgive them.

That is pure, perfect Love, and it's hard for us to wrap our minds around it.

Forgiveness is not about the other person.  It's about you.  It's about you forgiving one person 70 x 7 in one day, one person who sins against you constantly every 2 minutes and 56 seconds for 24 hours straight.  That's a lot of sin!

Repentance, on the other hand, is up to the other person.  The Bible tells us that God is not mocked, and that which you sow, you will also reap.  So if you continue in sin, no matter what it may be, and you never repent, the Bible tells us that you will reap the consequences of that sin.

But that doesn't mean God hasn't forgiven you...

"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

Pete

Quote from: The Lord is my banner on November 17, 2008, 04:06:11 am
I think she gets a fair bit of stick for it too.


We've had people up and leave our church, proclaiming loudly as they go that we're preaching heresy....

Does that count as getting "stick"?

"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

sharonl

Great thread - it is something I never even gave a thought made very  clear - thank you.
I've learned my 'learn something new every day' goal.
Diamonds From Heaven - help for the hurting heart
http://gentle.org/sites/diamonds/
Beautiful gifts - the men love them http://chopsknives.com

j4gong

ya Pete that is what getting "stick" is. It is also what Chet was talking about yesterday when it comes to people telling you are wrong and worthless, intead of helping them to heal.
Our Father who is in Heaven, holy is your name. Your kingdom come Your will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven! Thank you God for all the wonderful blessings in my life.

DianeL

Good thread, made me think - ouch, brain hurts
34
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
35
By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another. John 13

The Lord is my banner



Wordsmith

Wouldn't this sort of fall under the idea of universal salvation? Because if Satan is forgiven, then every unrepentant, unregenerate is saved. I see no place in Scipture that tells us that Satan has the ability or even the desire to repent. God already knows what is in his heart. And according to scripture his destination is told. However there's a time when death and even hell will thrown into the lake of fire. But the lake of fire remains and was created for Satan and his minions. It really wasn't created for people.
Be as loving as the Truth allows, even if it's
mis-interpreted,
because everyone  you meet is fighting
some kind of battle.

Pete

Quote from: Wordsmith on November 17, 2008, 04:01:03 pm
Wouldn't this sort of fall under the idea of universal salvation? Because if Satan is forgiven, then every unrepentant, unregenerate is saved. I see no place in Scipture that tells us that Satan has the ability or even the desire to repent. God already knows what is in his heart. And according to scripture his destination is told. However there's a time when death and even hell will thrown into the lake of fire. But the lake of fire remains and was created for Satan and his minions. It really wasn't created for people.


The key is, we are all forgiven.  Everyone of us, no matter what we've done.  But it is up to us to repent and accept that forgiveness.  Here's a statement that will make our minds go ... You can be forgiven and still go to hell.  How?  Because it is up to us to repent and receive that forgiveness.

There is no place in scripture that tells us that Satan will repent.  But the question is not is Satan going to repent.  The question is, has God forgiven him.  I think the reason that this is such a hard thing for us to accept is because we have been trained to believe that repentance comes before forgiveness.  But I'm not so sure that's true...

Repentance is not required for forgiveness.  Jesus demonstrated this to us when He said, Father forgive them, all the while these unrepentant men were doing horrible, unjust things to Him.  Jesus didn't wait until they repented.  He asked the Father to forgive them, right then.

However, because the Bible tells us that Satan is and will remain unrepentant, God is not mocked, and Satan will reap what he has sown.  But even so, that doesn't mean God hasn't forgiven him.

So it's not the idea of universal salvation at all.  It's the belief that we ARE forgiven, not because of our repentance, but simply because of what Jesus did on the cross.  When we repent, we receive the benefits of that forgiveness.

"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

Wordsmith

November 17, 2008, 04:37:08 pm #13 Last Edit: November 17, 2008, 04:54:48 pm by Wordsmith
Quote from: Pete on November 17, 2008, 04:26:01 pm
The key is, we are all forgiven.  Everyone of us, no matter what we've done.  But it is up to us to repent and accept that forgiveness.  Here's a statement that will make our minds go ... You can be forgiven and still go to hell.  How?  Because it is up to us to repent and receive that forgiveness.

There is no place in scripture that tells us that Satan will repent.  But the question is not is Satan going to repent.  The question is, has God forgiven him.  I think the reason that this is such a hard thing for us to accept is because we have been trained to believe that repentance comes before forgiveness.  But I'm not so sure that's true...

Repentance is not required for forgiveness.  Jesus demonstrated this to us when He said, Father forgive them, all the while these unrepentant men were doing horrible, unjust things to Him.  Jesus didn't wait until they repented.  He asked the Father to forgive them, right then.

However, because the Bible tells us that Satan is and will remain unrepentant, God is not mocked, and Satan will reap what he has sown.  But even so, that doesn't mean God hasn't forgiven him.

So it's not the idea of universal salvation at all.  It's the belief that we ARE forgiven, not because of our repentance, but simply because of what Jesus did on the cross.  When we repent, we receive the benefits of that forgiveness.




I've even heard that we're not asked to repent of our sin..those sins we're forgiven at the cross, But we are told to "Repent and believe the Gospel"..so what repentance are we talking about, the sin of unbelief? Or sins of mankind that Jesus already bore?
Be as loving as the Truth allows, even if it's
mis-interpreted,
because everyone  you meet is fighting
some kind of battle.

Pete

I'm not really talking about repentance at all.  I believe that we should all have repentant hearts, and be quick to repent.

But what we're talking about here is forgiveness.  Repentance is not the catalyst for forgiveness.  Forgiveness exists because of what Jesus did on the cross, not because we repent.

IOW, the causation for forgiveness is not the action of repentance.  Forgiveness exists because of Jesus.  Not because of what we've done, but because of what He has done for us.

"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

The Lord is my banner

Quote from: Pete on November 17, 2008, 04:26:01 pm

I think the reason that this is such a hard thing for us to accept is because we have been trained to believe that repentance comes before forgiveness.  But I'm not so sure that's true...



Yes!

Because the kindness of God leads to repentance - therefore we must have received His kindness before we repented.
And how did that kindness appear?  In part at least His kindness manifested in forgiveness towards us.

Then we repented - ie. "changed our mind" about God and ourselves.


Pete

Quote from: The Lord is my banner on November 17, 2008, 04:57:51 pm


Yes!

Because the kindness of God leads to repentance - therefore we must have received His kindness before we repented.
And how did that kindness appear?  In part at least His kindness manifested in forgiveness towards us.

Then we repented - ie. "changed our mind" about God and ourselves.


That's some good stuff!

While we were yet sinners, Christ gave His life for us.  He forgave us before we repented!

:2thumbs:
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

Wordsmith

November 17, 2008, 05:04:01 pm #17 Last Edit: November 17, 2008, 05:19:23 pm by Wordsmith
Quote from: Pete on November 17, 2008, 04:54:17 pm
I'm not really talking about repentance at all.  I believe that we should all have repentant hearts, and be quick to repent.

But what we're talking about here is forgiveness.  Repentance is not the catalyst for forgiveness.  Forgiveness exists because of what Jesus did on the cross, not because we repent.

IOW, the causation for forgiveness is not the action of repentance.  Forgiveness exists because of Jesus.  Not because of what we've done, but because of what He has done for us.




Sort of got off on that rabbit trail..sorry.

But I agree with you. Really the last thing I was
thinking about was how am I going to repent, when
I first heard the Good News. That came later when
experiancing the love of God. "We love Him, because
He loved us first".. And it's the love of God that constrains us.
Be as loving as the Truth allows, even if it's
mis-interpreted,
because everyone  you meet is fighting
some kind of battle.

Leah

Hold up a second: are we talking about forgiveness in regards to salvation alone? Because God also said that if we will not forgive others, then neither will He forgive us (which is in regards to sanctification, right?) . 
The apostasy is the falling away of what God has ordained and falling away from truth.

Leah

The apostasy is the falling away of what God has ordained and falling away from truth.