A political thread that you will probably not like...

Started by Pete, November 05, 2008, 10:49:23 pm

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Pete

Quote from: Prosperity on November 07, 2008, 10:34:37 am
This is the same old argument, under a different color of paint, that we can't leg legelat morality, which isn't true because we do all the time.  We can and have legislated much of God's word and many principles derived from God's word.  You can't force people to love by any legal system, but, but through the law you can male acts of love  a far more attractive proposition.


The problem I have with this line of thought is that it fosters a "what's in it for me" attitude.  IOW, I'll Love you if there's some reason for me to do so.

That's not God's Love.  God's Love is unconditional.  There are indeed rewards and inheritances that come from God's Love, but they are not the reason for His Love.

IOW, I believe that when we make acts of Love a more attractive proposition by offering some incentive to Love, we have violated the perfect, unconditional Love that God has for us, and put the focus, not on others, but on what we can get out of Loving.  That same unconditional Love that He Loves us with is supposed to shine through us.

He Loves us.  Period.  No strings attached.  We should do the same for others.
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

jeolmstead

Here's something to chew on for awhile.

"A primary agent for the propagandizing of technique in modern society is the involvement of people in participatory politics, especially in democratic societies where people are led to believe that it is "governance by the people for the people." Politics gives the individuals within society the illusion of freedom by having a sense of effectual participation. The "political illusion" of popular participation, popular control by the people, and collective problem-solving of social problems, falsely fulfills the need that individuals have for meaning, importance, effectiveness and security, leading them to surrender themselves all the more to the politicized state and the technicized system.
When all values are cast in political form, and all hopes are directed toward political solutions, believed to be on the verge of realization, politics becomes the "supreme religion of this age," propagating its "myth of the solution" for all social problems, despite the inability of politics to deal with good and evil, personal character, or the meaning and quality of life
." James A Fowler


John O.

Prosperity

Quote from: Wordsmith on November 07, 2008, 03:05:25 pm

The scriptures tell us to pray for our leaders. Those that are in authority and in the decision making positions, but do we get what we want when we live in a democracy? When it's the majority that decides these things by vote? When this was written people had kings over them that made the laws and had the final say. People had no say whatsoever, so their kings needed to be prayed for because it was their decision that was final.    So what do we pray for now,  concerning our leaders, when we have a type government where the population decides? We don't have any leaders that aren't willing to go by those that are screaming the loudest. So maybe we are praying for the wrong people assuming it's our leaders that have the final say.  Start praying for the population instead, that covers our type of government.




Praying for others is alwasy good.



The reason God tells us to "exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men" "For kings, and for the salvation of all those in authority;" so we can lead a quiet and peaceable lifes in a Nation of born-again leaders who have come to "...come unto the knowledge of the truth."

1 Timothy 2
1 I exhort therefore, that,
first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority
; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Paul did pray for his Roman and Jewish leaders and yet he suffered many things before he most likely died a violent dearth.  Praying for all men is good, but is  is no guarantee that they will respond to God as you hoped them to because they have free will.

What Paul did not do was to submit to Roman thinking, including some of their laws.  If he had, they would not have killed him.

We are first to submit to the word and will of God in our lives, which is what Paul did.  Then to Church leadership, that is if you know who they are. Lastly we should make every effort to leave peaceably in our society until that time that God leads us to do otherwise, as I believe God lead Washington and the funding fathers.  Will that happen in today's society.  I doubt it because most American don't value their freedom that was secured for them at the price of someone else's blood.

Prosperity

November 07, 2008, 07:11:56 pm #63 Last Edit: November 07, 2008, 10:57:46 pm by Prosperity
QuoteThe problem I have with this line of thought is that it fosters a "what's in it for me" attitude.  IOW, I'll Love you if there's some reason for me to do so.

That's not God's Love.  God's Love is unconditional.  There are indeed rewards and inheritances that come from God's Love, but they are not the reason for His Love.

IOW, I believe that when we make acts of Love a more attractive proposition by offering some incentive to Love, we have violated the perfect, unconditional Love that God has for us, and put the focus, not on others, but on what we can get out of Loving.  That same unconditional Love that He Loves us with is supposed to shine through us.


Well Pete, I guess you have never had a gun pointed to you head.  When someone points a gun to your head and tells you not to act in a loving way to someone, I expect you would be less likely to act in a loving way than if didn't have the gun pointed to your head.  In other words, when your chief concern is survival, your think about little else. 

How you in anyway tied what you said to the following statement to anything I said is beyond me.  Here we go again.  LOL

QuoteHe Loves us.  Period.  No strings attached.  We should do the same for others.




Prosperity

Quote from: jeolmstead on November 07, 2008, 05:25:00 pm
Here's something to chew on for awhile.

"A primary agent for the propagandizing of technique in modern society is the involvement of people in participatory politics, especially in democratic societies where people are led to believe that it is "governance by the people for the people." Politics gives the individuals within society the illusion of freedom by having a sense of effectual participation. The "political illusion" of popular participation, popular control by the people, and collective problem-solving of social problems, falsely fulfills the need that individuals have for meaning, importance, effectiveness and security, leading them to surrender themselves all the more to the politicized state and the technicized system.
When all values are cast in political form, and all hopes are directed toward political solutions, believed to be on the verge of realization, politics becomes the "supreme religion of this age," propagating its "myth of the solution" for all social problems, despite the inability of politics to deal with good and evil, personal character, or the meaning and quality of life
." James A Fowler


John O.


I agree, it is a lot to chew on.  I am still chewing.  It is kind of tasty, but I will tell you when I think it tastes good enough to swallow. 

Pete

Quote from: Prosperity on November 07, 2008, 07:11:56 pm

Well Pete, I guess you have never had a gun pointed to you head.  When someone points a gun to your head and tells you not to act in a loving way to someone, I expect you would be less likely to act in a loving way to someone than if you knew that nothing wold happen to you if you acted in a loving way to someone.  Sorry about the sentence structure, but I wanted to be clear.


How you in anyway tied what you said to the following statement to anything I said is beyond me.  Here we go again.  LOL



God doesn't want us holding guns to people's heads to make them act Loving.  That's not Love at all.  It's coercion, counterfeit, fake, and a poor substitue for the perfect Love that casts out fear, along with the fear of punishment, that we should all strive to walk in.
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

Prosperity

November 07, 2008, 10:25:36 pm #66 Last Edit: November 07, 2008, 10:51:59 pm by Prosperity
Quote from: Pete on November 07, 2008, 09:39:50 pm


God doesn't want us holding guns to people's heads to make them act Loving.  That's not Love at all.  It's coercion, counterfeit, fake, and a poor substitue for the perfect Love that casts out fear, along with the fear of punishment, that we should all strive to walk in.


Ahh, I see the problem.

Let me try rephrase...

Well Pete, I guess you have never had a gun pointed to you head.  When someone points a gun to your head and tells you not to act in a loving way to someone, I expect you would be less likely to act in a loving way than if didn't have the gun pointed to your head.  In other words, when your chief concern is survival, your think about little else. 

It is kind of like Maslow's hierarchy of needs




Take generosity for instance.  When the Government over taxes you, you have a more difficult time giving the amount of money you wish to people in need.  Your need to give your money to the Government increases as your tax burden increases.  As your need increases to give your money to the Government, your need to give to others begins to become overshadowed by your need to feed yourself and your family and to stay out of prison for not paying your taxes.    The point I am making, corrupt Governments make it more and more difficult for the people to perform acts of love (act as God want us to act).  Rome certainly hindered Paul's efforts.  God doesn't want the Government holding guns to our heads to make us give to whom they think our money should be given to, rater than us obeying God's instruction on how and when to give.  That's not Love at all.  It's coercion, counterfeit, fake, and a poor substitute for the perfect Love that casts out fear, along with the fear of punishment, that the Government, by its policies, should encourage, not discourage us to walk in.  I hope this tracked a bit better for you.

Pete

Quote from: Prosperity on November 07, 2008, 07:11:56 pm

Well Pete, I guess you have never had a gun pointed to you head.  When someone points a gun to your head and tells you not to act in a loving way to someone, I expect you would be less likely to act in a loving way to someone than if you knew that nothing wold happen to you if you acted in a loving way to someone.  Sorry about the sentence structure, but I wanted to be clear.





You want to try to rephrase that and run that by me again?  If you wanted to be clear, that sentence structure wasn't the way to do it...

"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

Prosperity

Quote from: Pete on November 07, 2008, 10:45:38 pm




You want to try to rephrase that and run that by me again?  If you wanted to be clear, that sentence structure wasn't the way to do it...




I did forewarn you I was having a bit of difficulty with the sentence structure and it appears I was right.

Go look at my last post that I just modified.  I tried to be clearer just for you.  lol I think you might get what I am saying now.

Leah

Quote from: David on November 05, 2008, 11:47:59 pm
No offense taken, but I believe you are off base.

God did NOT put Obama in office - lazy, misled, blinded and disobedient Christians did.  People can twist it all they want, but God does not go against free will.  He will allow ignorant people to make choices and He will honor those choices.


Hold up, you're saying I'm lazy, miseld, blinded and disobediant now?!

Cuz I voted for him, you know.
The apostasy is the falling away of what God has ordained and falling away from truth.

DianeL

Quote from: jeolmstead on November 07, 2008, 05:25:00 pm
Here's something to chew on for awhile.

"A primary agent for the propagandizing of technique in modern society is the involvement of people in participatory politics, especially in democratic societies where people are led to believe that it is "governance by the people for the people." Politics gives the individuals within society the illusion of freedom by having a sense of effectual participation. The "political illusion" of popular participation, popular control by the people, and collective problem-solving of social problems, falsely fulfills the need that individuals have for meaning, importance, effectiveness and security, leading them to surrender themselves all the more to the politicized state and the technicized system.
When all values are cast in political form, and all hopes are directed toward political solutions, believed to be on the verge of realization, politics becomes the "supreme religion of this age," propagating its "myth of the solution" for all social problems, despite the inability of politics to deal with good and evil, personal character, or the meaning and quality of life
." James A Fowler


John O.


oh boy, this is good..... sums it up for what I think of political forum.
34
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
35
By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another. John 13

Prosperity

Quote from: Imana on November 08, 2008, 08:37:04 pm


Hold up, you're saying I'm lazy, miseld, blinded and disobediant now?!

Cuz I voted for him, you know.


Why did you vote for Berry?

Prosperity

Quote from: DianeL on November 09, 2008, 08:29:19 am


oh boy, this is good..... sums it up for what I think of political forum.


You can find the entire writing here.

Prosperity


charityagape

Quote from: Prosperity on November 07, 2008, 02:12:40 pm



So what is your point.  Are you making some equivocation to assert that God does not want a legal system in this country based on his word?


UH no.  My point is that God's people can flourish period...........no matter what the Godless are doing.

Leah

Quote from: Prosperity on November 09, 2008, 12:24:23 pm


Why did you vote for Berry?


Who is Berry??

I thought the OP was about people's dislike for Obama and using scriptures and prophecies to back up their viewpoints.

The apostasy is the falling away of what God has ordained and falling away from truth.

Pete

Quote from: Prosperity on November 09, 2008, 12:39:30 pm
Why do posts keep disappearing on this thread?


Huh?

No posts have disappeared from this thread.

"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

Prosperity


jeolmstead

It strikes me that in spite of the fact that many attempted to cast Jesus in the role of political leader He always resisted them.

Even those in His inner circle were perplexed that He would not use his authority to ascend to an earthly throne.


It appears to me that we seem to have the same problem today.

For thirty years we have sought to gain control of the political arena in order to establish the kingdom of God. While we have managed to have "our guy" at the top a pretty good percentage of the time the kingdom has been steadily decreasing (or so it seems).

The kingdom however does not start with the top and trickle down to the masses. It advances one heart at a time with those hearts usually found beating in the poorest and meekest of us.

The Jews understood something about what Jesus said about the kingdom that we miss. The mustard plant found in the Middle East grows like a weed. It takes over. Once it gets established it can never be stopped and the birds that nest in it are not the mighty eagles. They are the common sparrows.

John O.

Sarah

Embraced by the loving arms of the Father....