• Welcome, Guest. Please login.
February 24, 2020, 06:56:22 pm

Insightful...

Started by Prosperity, November 03, 2008, 09:50:47 pm

Previous topic - Next topic

Prosperity

November 03, 2008, 09:50:47 pm Last Edit: November 04, 2008, 09:58:12 am by Prosperity
Note he did says average age of democracies, but it isn't the numbers that attracted me as much as the process.

Here is a larger excerpt:

"Consider this:

About the time our original thirteen states adopted their new constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years earlier: [BLOCKQUOTE]
'A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government.'

'A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.'

'From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.'

'The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years.'

'During those 200 years, those nations always progressed through the following sequence:

1. from bondage to spiritual faith;
2. from spiritual faith to great courage;
3. from courage to liberty;
4. from liberty to abundance;
5. from abundance to complacency;
6. from complacency to apathy;
7. from apathy to dependence;
8. from dependence back into bondage."

The full article is here [/BLOCKQUOTE]

Pete

No offense, but that article is one big manipulative attempt using FUD to lobby people to vote for their guns.

Statements such as, "...However, with all of the issues surrounding this election, there is really only ONE issue that is the Litmus Test of Freedom and that issue is GUNS IN THE HANDS OF FREE MEN..." and "...Anyone who owns a gun should understand this:  Ultimately, your freedom and your ability to protect your family rests in keeping your gun in YOUR hands and not the hands of the government..." are clearly a group with one agenda; being able to keep their concealed weapons.

The 8-points in the alleged life cycle, while are an interesting theory, are just that.  I clicked on the article hoping to find a further explanation, with examples showing this life cycle in practice in past civilizations.  But what I found was an article charged with emotional rhetoric, and nothing to actually back the "life cycle" theory.

You might want to check out this sourced article on Snopes, which links you to the book written by Alexander Fraser Tytler where you can search the entire text of the book for yourself, and you'll see that there is nothing remotely similar to what is attributed to him in this alleged theory.  Additionally, there are links to the DOJ and NACJD which will show that the murder rates cited are also incorrect.

IOW, this article is full of misinformation in an attempt to promote an agenda.
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

Alpine

ah! Snopes strikes again!
As long as the Steelers themes smileys exist so shall my protest last!

Prosperity

Quote from: Pete on November 04, 2008, 01:04:04 am
No offense, but that article is one big manipulative attempt using FUD to lobby people to vote for their guns.

Statements such as, "...However, with all of the issues surrounding this election, there is really only ONE issue that is the Litmus Test of Freedom and that issue is ..." and "...Anyone who owns a gun should understand this:  Ultimately, your freedom and your ability to protect your family rests in keeping your gun in YOUR hands and not the hands of the government..." are clearly a group with one agenda; being able to keep their concealed weapons.

The 8-points in the alleged life cycle, while are an interesting theory, are just that.  I clicked on the article hoping to find a further explanation, with examples showing this life cycle in practice in past civilizations.  But what I found was an article charged with emotional rhetoric, and nothing to actually back the "life cycle" theory.

You might want to check out this sourced article on Snopes, which links you to the book written by Alexander Fraser Tytler where you can search the entire text of the book for yourself, and you'll see that there is nothing remotely similar to what is attributed to him in this alleged theory.  Additionally, there are links to the DOJ and NACJD which will show that the murder rates cited are also incorrect.

IOW, this article is full of misinformation in an attempt to promote an agenda.


No need to wear yourself out picking the guy apart, I was just mostly interested in the process, not the accuracy of the entire article:

"1. from bondage to spiritual faith;
2. from spiritual faith to great courage;
3. from courage to liberty;
4. from liberty to abundance;
5. from abundance to complacency;
6. from complacency to apathy;
7. from apathy to dependence;
8. from dependence back into bondage."


This does seem to describe some of what America has gone through, is going through and will go through.

Do you have something agaist guns in the hannds of free men?

Pete

The entire "process" is 100% fabricated.  Made up.  A farce.  Not true.  Not supported.  Not sourced. Not proven.  The guy never said it.  The "research" never occurred.

You can search the text of the book by Alexander Fraser Tytler yourself at this link and see for yourself;

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=moa;idno=ABW5010.0001.001;cc=moa
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

Prosperity

Let me try this one more time.  No matter who wrote it or why it was written, it does to some degree describe what America has gone through, is going through and will likely go through.  One of the reasons Americans came to America was to escape spiritual bondage.  They were people of spiritual faith who mustered great courage to fight to obtain their liberty, you know The Revolutionary War.  Once they had secured their liberty, they built a County of abundance.  ...but alas, once abundance was achieved, Americans became complacent.  They lost the necessary vigilance to make sure those they elected to Government possessed Christian morals.  America has become so apathetic that only about half vote and far fewer know what their candidates believe.  Then came the creeping crud of socialism.  Americans looked to Government for their provision and have elected corrupt Socialist/Communist politicians who have no problem helping the public to become depended on the Government by using the force of law to take money from those who earn it and give it to those who don't work at all.  The rich are in bondage to the poor and the poor are in bondage to the Government and the Government continues to further bind the rich to give more to the poor, which has all but destroyed the way of life that the founding fathers wanted us to have and God wants us to have.  You know, One Nation Under God...

So you needn't pick at the article or me now that you know the context for why I posed it and what value I see in the following eight steps.

1. from bondage to spiritual faith;
2. from spiritual faith to great courage;
3. from courage to liberty;
4. from liberty to abundance;
5. from abundance to complacency;
6. from complacency to apathy;
7. from apathy to dependence;
8. from dependence back into bondage."

Pete

I'm not picking at you, or the article.  I'm "exposing the truth" of the article, as someone else called for on another thread.

The truth is, some Joe Schmo wrote this "process" down, claimed it was a repeating "cycle", with nothing to back such a claim, stuck it in an email to try and use fear to make people think that we're inevitably headed toward the next step in the "cycle", which is "bondage", as the completely fabricated "cycle" indicates, and the masses swallowed it up as yet another reason to vote against Obama.

This is why politics make me sick.  There are plenty of legitimate reasons to vote for McCain, without fabricating "cycles" to scare people into voting for him.  Things like this make the Republican party (with which I am proudly registered) look desperate and foolish.

Politics stinks.
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

Alpine

Quote from: Prosperity on November 04, 2008, 10:08:42 am


No need to wear yourself out picking the guy apart, I was just mostly interested in the process, not the accuracy of the entire article:

"1. from bondage to spiritual faith;
2. from spiritual faith to great courage;
3. from courage to liberty;
4. from liberty to abundance;
5. from abundance to complacency;
6. from complacency to apathy;
7. from apathy to dependence;
8. from dependence back into bondage."


This does seem to describe some of what America has gone through, is going through and will go through.

Do you have something agaist guns in the hannds of free men?




This list isn't comparable to the U.S. as it doesn't include the civil war or the strife that led to it and the flaws in our system that allowed racial injustuice for another 100 years.
As long as the Steelers themes smileys exist so shall my protest last!

Prosperity

Quote from: Alpine on November 04, 2008, 11:16:21 am


This list isn't comparable to the U.S. as it doesn't include the civil war or the strife that led to it and the flaws in our system that allowed racial injustuice for another 100 years.


Picky picky picky again again again!

No kidding?  It did include the civil war?  It didn't include the fact I went to the store last night either.  Have you ever heard of a thumbnail sketch. 

...neither does it include the current racial injustice against white people today either.  So what?  It is still an interesting 8 steps to think on. 

Are you always this fun.

..by the way, racial injustice is has been around for a long time and blacks have hardly been the sole recipient of it.  As a matter of fact, it appears that black leaders seem to hate white people more than white leaders hate blacks.  According to Calypso Louie, and many other black religious leaders, the white man is the devil, but then again I don't see them breaking down the door to go back to Africa. 

Alpine

Quote from: Prosperity on November 04, 2008, 11:28:36 am


Picky picky picky again again again!

No kidding?  It did include the civil war?  It didn't include the fact I went to the store last night either.  Have you ever heard of a thumbnail sketch. 

...neither does it include the current racial injustice against white people today either.  So what?  It is still an interesting 8 steps to think on. 

Are you always this fun.

..by the way, racial injustice is has been around for a long time and blacks have hardly been the sole recipient of it.  As a matter of fact, it appears that black leaders seem to hate white people more than white leaders hate blacks.  According to Calypso Louie, and many other black religious leaders, the white man is the devil, but then again I don't see them breaking down the door to go back to Africa. 



You must be very sheltered from black people if that's the way you think. I understand that many black leaders today are bad news.  But you cannot deny that there were injustices to blacks even to the most recent of times?

How does that work with your theory? I think it ignores it. The civil war was extremely damaging to our country, to the point where we nearly ceased to exist as a union. Not to mention hundreds of thousands of Americans died as well. I'd call that pretty major stuff!
As long as the Steelers themes smileys exist so shall my protest last!

Prosperity

Quote from: Pete on November 04, 2008, 10:54:59 am
I'm not picking at you, or the article.  I'm "exposing the truth" of the article, as someone else called for on another thread.

The truth is, some Joe Schmo wrote this "process" down, claimed it was a repeating "cycle", with nothing to back such a claim, stuck it in an email to try and use fear to make people think that we're inevitably headed toward the next step in the "cycle", which is "bondage", as the completely fabricated "cycle" indicates, and the masses swallowed it up as yet another reason to vote against Obama.

This is why politics make me sick.  There are plenty of legitimate reasons to vote for McCain, without fabricating "cycles" to scare people into voting for him.  Things like this make the Republican party (with which I am proudly registered) look desperate and foolish.

Politics stinks.


Pete,

Actually the truth is it was not Mr. Schmo who chronologicaled this.  The list of 8 steps from bondage to liberty and back to bondage were chronicled in the essays of a man named Alexander Tyler well over 200 years ago

Alexander Tyler's Study of Democracy

Although this information is attributed to Alexander Tyler, I can find no proof that he actually wrote this. I have posted it here not because of who wrote it, but because I feel it certainly parallels our nation's path over the past 200 years...and I feel it accurately describes our final years as a sovereign nation.

About the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years prior:

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."

"The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

1. From bondage to spiritual faith;
2. From spiritual faith to great courage;
3. From courage to liberty;
4. From liberty to abundance;
5. From abundance to complacency;
6. From complacency to apathy;
7. From apathy to dependence;
8. From dependence back into bondage

More about this here


Hmmmmmmm, so what is Mr. Schmo doing these days?

Pete

Quote from: Prosperity on November 04, 2008, 04:56:10 pm

Pete,

Actually the truth is it was not Mr. Schmo who chronologicaled this.  The list of 8 steps from bondage to liberty and back to bondage were chronicled in the essays of a man named Alexander Tyler well over 200 years ago



David,

The first sentence at the blog post you linked says just the opposite... "Although this information is attributed to Alexander Tyler, I can find no proof that he actually wrote this...."

The reason that he can find no proof that he actually wrote it is because he didn't.

Again, here is the actual book by Lord Woodhouselee Alexander Fraser Tytler, titled "Universal history, from the creation of the world to the beginning of the eighteenth century"  Again, you are welcome to search the entire text of the book yourself at this link;

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=moa;idno=ABW5010.0001.001;cc=moa

The 8 steps are not in there.  If you search for the word "spiritual", it shows up one time in the book on page 262, and the phrase "spiritual faith" isn't in the 524-page book anywhere.

As is the case with most email legends, Mr. Schmo made up 8 steps, attributed the text to some dude that wrote a book, and voila.  Instant legend.
"There is no charge for awesomeness -- or attractiveness."

Prosperity

Quote from: Pete on November 04, 2008, 05:09:49 pm
David,

The first sentence at the blog post you linked says just the opposite... "Although this information is attributed to Alexander Tyler, I can find no proof that he actually wrote this...."

The reason that he can find no proof that he actually wrote it is because he didn't.

Again, here is the actual book by Lord Woodhouselee Alexander Fraser Tytler, titled "Universal history, from the creation of the world to the beginning of the eighteenth century"  Again, you are welcome to search the entire text of the book yourself at this link;

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=moa;idno=ABW5010.0001.001;cc=moa

The 8 steps are not in there.  If you search for the word "spiritual", it shows up one time in the book on page 262, and the phrase "spiritual faith" isn't in the 524-page book anywhere.

As is the case with most email legends, Mr. Schmo made up 8 steps, attributed the text to some dude that wrote a book, and voila.  Instant legend.


...but the guy did not say he did not write it.  I have different Pastor friend who believed that he did wrote it.  This is not the Pastor I usually refer to.  Again, the important thing to me is that I agree with this fellow when he stated, "I have posted it here not because of who wrote it, but because I feel it certainly parallels our nation's path over the past 200 years...and I feel it accurately describes our final years as a sovereign nation."  Who ever wrote it is insightful and maybe even somewhat prophetic. 

I sent this to a history major friend of mine, who is also a Pastor.  He didn't know who wrote it, but he did generally agree with the 8 steps as they relate to America.

Strep 8 may be closer at hand than anyone here wants to think or can conceive of.

So no matter who wrote it, I still see America paralleling thee eight steps i a general sense, which was my only real interest in it to begin with.

I will surf a bit more to see who wrote it, but it may turn out the the author is unknown.

...but I am pretty sure that Mr. Schmore didn't write it.

Prosperity

okay pete, I sent this to my friend in Scotland.  I will post his reply here if he can checks it out.

Hi Damian,

I am in a conversation on one of the message boards about something that may or may not have written by Alex Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh in 1787 entitle a warning to America

You can find the article.


http://www.homeschoolbuilding.org/Item.php3?id=3130

Some say he did and others say he did not write this.  Do you have anyway of verifying if he wrote the article?

Thanks so much.

David