December 17, 2018, 04:41:09 AM

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21
General Discussion / Re: When forgiveness and accou...
Last post by jiminpa - December 09, 2018, 01:16:42 AM

1 Peter 2:20 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
[After all] what [a]kind of glory [is there in it] if, when you do wrong and are punished for it, you take it patiently? But if you bear patiently with suffering [which results] when you do right and that is undeserved, it is acceptable and pleasing to God.

God does not condone sin, and neither should His followers. To want a murderer to not face a penalty for cold-blooded killing devalues what God holds dear--innocent life, and while my parents weren't the greatest humanitarians on the planet, as far as anyone knows, they were quite innocent in the matter that got them killed. In addition, that man is extremely callous. He has no qualms about killing anyone at all, just for beer money. Can you be sure that the next people he would kill would not have young children to care for? I can't, and I've met him. God wants him with Him in eternity, so I do too, but I don't want him walking the streets.
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General Discussion / Re: A new thread
Last post by jiminpa - December 08, 2018, 11:08:04 PM
I can't apologize for posting what I know to be the truth. I do apologize for the tone.

If you're interested, I can expound.

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General Discussion / Re: A new thread
Last post by DavidMcClean - December 08, 2018, 07:42:04 PM
Quote from: jiminpa on December 08, 2018, 07:35:21 PMOkay, well have fun with that, (seriously, I figure like an Irish bar fight), but I'm not such a strong person in real life, so it's more than a little hypocritical for me to be a keyboard commando. I did once have someone I considered a very good friend because we had frothing at the mouth arguments every day at work, and he made a good case for his position. People at work expected us to come to blows, and that was the opposite of what was going on. We had learned to trust each other enough to go at it and know neither of us meant any harm. I remember it fondly. But I was an entirely different person then.

God is both incomprehensibly compassionate and fearsome. He is more moral than you or I can understand. He does not owe either of us an explanation, and we won't understand it if He gives it. If you want to think you are smart enough and moral enough to hold God accountable it won't work out well for you, and sooner or later you will find out that you are neither smart nor moral. That is not a shot, that is reality for us all. It's like when a 3 year old tries to explain justice to an "unfair" parent, only infinitely more so. It's not God who is unjust and doesn't understand, it's us. The God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament who walked as one of us and died a horrible death to raise us above our own evilness.

Will I rejoice if you continue on in your assumptions all the way to damnation? absolutely not! If you are determined to set yourself up as your own god all the way to Hell, the most compassionate thing I can do is confront you. I believe that what I said was accurate. I could have said it better, or not at all.
I thought I was getting an apology?

Guess not. That's not a problem - I have big shoulders. Ok then I'll humour you - I will listen to your heartfelt apology - on which points would you like to hold your hands up and say that you either got it wrong or caused offence?

My struggle with substance abuse?
The death of my daughter?
My "emotional triggering"?

Please elucidate I'm all ears.....where did the Saviour restrict your compassion and understanding.

None? Ok then......I'll try and cope with the stress lol  :P

The most compassionate thing you can do is to confront me? Really? Strange I used to think the same way before I grew up. It's actually not - the most compassionate thing you can do is to first meet me where I'm at, understand it and go a mile in my shoes. That's the only way you will learn to rejoice with those that rejoice and weep with those that weep. Or....do you think you'll make some interstellar leap from ignorance to complete understanding without compassion or the investment of time?

I have to say it's interesting to see your tag - " I used to worry and stress and strive to "do my part," never believing that I had done enough of "my part."  Now I see my part as casting it off on Him, doing what I believe He is giving me, and letting it just be His problem.  I don't have to fix everything, but I get to work along side of God."

Seems to me that you throw it all at Jesus, and anything else that you screw up is His problem. By your own words you don't have to fix everything but you get to work alongside God? So presumably if God does nothing or tells you nothing then you as well do nothing? Sounds very like you mirror Jesus saying that "I do nothing but what I see the Father doing". It's one of those things that sounds so amazing until you ponder it and then think, "Jesus what arrogance"......"If he screws up then it's nothing to do with him, but it's all back on the Saviour". Seriously dude....have you considered the sanity of where your arguments come from? Christ tells you to do something then you do it, otherwise you do nothing.

I call BS. I refuse to believe you obey at all times....and again YOU and I KNOW this to be the case. You can try and fake it with smart words that may awe some of the younger folks here, but YOU and I are around the same age, we both know the reality of life, relationships, marriage, children, birth and death and the struggles that come with those things. You can bull$#@% kids but not people your own age....

I think the real heart of your issues, is a lack of forgiveness (that I pointed out in another thread but have had no response to), and also that I'm the one calling time on your pretence and you're having to face up to the fact that you're just maybe not the whole package that you've believed all along and like to project.

Until YOU and I can talk respectfully on the same wavelength then I'm done. When I see reality from you or this thread is removed then this is my position.

Perhaps Bryan will flame me as well, until then I have a genuine hope that he will actually have the maturity to read my response and reply with the respect that creates a meaningful conversation.

Dave

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General Discussion / Re: A new thread
Last post by jiminpa - December 08, 2018, 07:35:21 PM
Okay, well have fun with that, (seriously, I figure like an Irish bar fight), but I'm not such a strong person in real life, so it's more than a little hypocritical for me to be a keyboard commando. I did once have someone I considered a very good friend because we had frothing at the mouth arguments every day at work, and he made a good case for his position. People at work expected us to come to blows, and that was the opposite of what was going on. We had learned to trust each other enough to go at it and know neither of us meant any harm. I remember it fondly. But I was an entirely different person then.

God is both incomprehensibly compassionate and fearsome. He is more moral than you or I can understand. He does not owe either of us an explanation, and we won't understand it if He gives it. If you want to think you are smart enough and moral enough to hold God accountable it won't work out well for you, and sooner or later you will find out that you are neither smart nor moral. That is not a shot, that is reality for us all. It's like when a 3 year old tries to explain justice to an "unfair" parent, only infinitely more so. It's not God who is unjust and doesn't understand, it's us. The God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament who walked as one of us and died a horrible death to raise us above our own evilness.

Will I rejoice if you continue on in your assumptions all the way to damnation? absolutely not! If you are determined to set yourself up as your own god all the way to Hell, the most compassionate thing I can do is confront you. I believe that what I said was accurate. I could have said it better, or not at all.
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General Discussion / Re: A new thread
Last post by DavidMcClean - December 08, 2018, 06:57:48 PM
Quote from: jiminpa on December 08, 2018, 06:48:33 PMI'd apologize for saying anything, but you won't see it.
No I actually would. You misjudge me because you don't know me. A lot of the posts I recorded here where when I was in the darkest place in my life after my divorce. Then I took a break for a few years. I think you still see me as that black person instead of someone around your own age trying to make it through as best I can, albeit with a different perspective now. I never posted really about my life in the midst of Christianity before so you missed that part of my life. I think if I had then you'd maybe see me as a different person.

I did not want to cause confrontation, just explain the answer to the question I was asked. I appreciate that leaving the same faith that you're so committed to and not only that, explaining MY reasons may be offensive. But there's no need to be offended really. Wouldn't it be the best outcome if another atheist came here and saw a discussion that was interesting, challenging and respectful instead of shaking their head and walking away. Believe me I've seen it on other forums. An atheist or seeker posts a message and gets devoured, then walks away....

I spent about 2-3 hours revising my answer to try and not cause any offence. In hindsight I should have just said nothing. But remember you're dealing with the Irish....you have a pop at me and I'll have a pop back and throw in the kitchen sink as well :)

Anyways all the best
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General Discussion / Re: A new thread
Last post by jiminpa - December 08, 2018, 06:48:33 PM
I'd apologize for saying anything, but you won't see it.
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General Discussion / Re: A new thread
Last post by DavidMcClean - December 08, 2018, 06:05:41 PM
FYI I have sent a private message to Pete and asked him to close my account and ban my IP address.

You will no longer with any luck have one of the sick people come here with the odd post (you know the people that Jesus said he came to call).

Now Jiminpa it will be just YOU and a couple of others.....the nice people. This is a great day for you - you'll no longer have to endure my "easily triggered feelings".

Good morning, good afternoon & goodnight.





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General Discussion / Re: When forgiveness and accou...
Last post by DavidMcClean - December 08, 2018, 02:44:55 PM
Quote from: jiminpa on December 08, 2018, 01:14:37 PMForgiveness is an important topic. Jesus tied us being forgiven to how we forgive. God is both merciful and just, so He forgives, and for those who receive Jesus's payment our sins are not remembered and His justice is satisfied by Jesus's sacrifice. For everyone else His justice is not satisfied and He will poor out the full measure of His wrath at the appointed time. I know you know all of that, and I am just reminding you of the context of forgiveness.

In practical terms, when Jesus walked as one of us He very often deferred judgement until the final judgement, but He did not accept the abuse of the pharisees until it was time to lay Himself down.

I think it was Paul who made the distinction between just punishment and persecution, and I think that it is wise to know the line between forgiveness and enabling. When my parents were murdered I had to work to forgive the man who did it, but I have never felt it is okay to for him to not face the appropriate civil penalty.


If you still want justice then you have not forgiven and are not acting in love.

Love keeps no record of wrongs, love covers a multitude of sins.

You need to apply the words you say you believe.
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General Discussion / Re: When forgiveness and accou...
Last post by jiminpa - December 08, 2018, 01:14:37 PM
Forgiveness is an important topic. Jesus tied us being forgiven to how we forgive. God is both merciful and just, so He forgives, and for those who receive Jesus's payment our sins are not remembered and His justice is satisfied by Jesus's sacrifice. For everyone else His justice is not satisfied and He will poor out the full measure of His wrath at the appointed time. I know you know all of that, and I am just reminding you of the context of forgiveness.

In practical terms, when Jesus walked as one of us He very often deferred judgement until the final judgement, but He did not accept the abuse of the pharisees until it was time to lay Himself down.

I think it was Paul who made the distinction between just punishment and persecution, and I think that it is wise to know the line between forgiveness and enabling. When my parents were murdered I had to work to forgive the man who did it, but I have never felt it is okay to for him to not face the appropriate civil penalty.
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General Discussion / Re: A new thread
Last post by DavidMcClean - December 08, 2018, 12:27:23 PM
Quote from: jiminpa on December 08, 2018, 12:17:55 PMYou are not morally superior to the God of the Bible, and He is not obligated to prove Himself to you, me or anyone, especially if they are dead-set against His existence. The fact is that He could prove Himself to you, explicitly, and you would stick your fingers in your ears, close your eyes and demand that He go away, then because He did go away you would feel self-satisfied and justified in your criticisms of Him because He did what you demanded.

In the past I have walked on eggshells to try to avoid hurting your very easily triggered feelings, but you actually need someone to tell you that when you go to Hell it will not be because of your moral superiority but because of your absolute arrogance. You have been looking for an excuse to hate everything for a long time, and when you couldn't find one you created one on your own. Congratulations! you are now your own god, and your god is a fool. One day you will face the real God, and your arrogance will crumble and you will know that you are morally inferior, and still cling to your arrogance as it drags you to the abyss.
Thanks for your post - I appreciate the time you've taken to consider and formulate a reply.

I spot at least three insults and swipes at my character in there, and not a word of enquiry or comfort about my wife. As I stated at the beginning of my post I did not intend offence, merely to explain the question I'd been asked. However you use the word "triggered feelings" and you certainly seem triggered. Especially since if you'd bothered to read my post closely you'd have seen I was directly replying to Bryan (hint : the use of the word Bryan a number of times might have been a subtle clue there). But YOU were so "triggered" that you leapt on the thread and spewed out some ad hominem attacks. Was ANY of my post directed towards you?

No - but you couldn't resist could you? I suggest a long hard look in the mirror and some managing of your emotions might be in order.

You've had swipes at me, so in the same spirit of reciprocation I have to say that over the years we have had dialogue (thankfully brief) I personally have found you to be defensive, immature, cold and judgemental. You seem to want to sit in the seat of knowledge and dole out semi literate biblical advice and take every opportunity to put forth YOUR view and YOUR opinion and YOUR interpretation on any scripture mentioned - let me be honest even if you aren't - you and I both know it feeds your ego and gives you the validation as a middle aged man that you're sadly lacking in other areas of your life. I see your posts on ChristianForums and they're exactly the same..... "come to me all you who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you some much needed advice and O so wise biblical counsel". You're exactly the sort of mean spirited "professing Christian" that exudes the sort of negative qualities that would make we want to run a mile, and has all the tolerance, grace and love of a bucket of ice water.

You make sweeping value judgements about my failings yet you don't even know me. You have no idea about the abuse and rape I suffered as a child, the physical and sexual abuse at the hands of a "Christian" ex wife, my struggles with drugs and alcohol as a result of these things, nor coping with the death of my teenage daughter four years ago. You just loaded for bear and blasted me with all the attitude you could muster. So thanks for that - I really appreciate it. I'm sure Christ is relieved that He doesn't need to bother passing judgement since you've already done it for Him.

Out of interest - before you posted did you spend time on your knees weeping for my soul? Did you ask your God what message He wanted me to hear? Did you perchance ask what proof you could bring or in what way you could show His love or did you just jump on to your over developed sense of indignation and have a go at me?

(PS here's a wee piece of advice for free : If your God is indeed "God" - then He doesn't need YOU to feel outraged on His behalf. I'm sure He's well able to handle the responsibility of feeling offended and doling out punishment without help from yours truly).

O and by the way - I'm not excusing my failings. I am all too aware of them - I know I'm broken, I know I'm highly damaged goods and high maintenance. I have many many issues, and failings and I don't shy away from them. So I'm not blaming the past - it's a number of contributing factors and yes I have made MANY poor choices over the years. But - thanks for pointing my failings out again - much appreciated.

Instead of possibly entering into a good spirited and respectful discussion about my journey and some of the points I made that - you never know - could have made me consider further, you've just written me off. We could have talked through some of the points I raised about *my* journey and who knows - if you'd not been so full of pride you might have walked away having learned something. I might even have learned something myself. I'm sure Christ would be very pleased with the love you've shown today - well done! A shining example indeed of the transforming power that you "claim" (I use the term very advisedly) to follow. The irony is of course not lost on me - that you are living, breathing proof of the lack of sanctification that validates one of my earlier points. It's....almost as if I'd prayed and asked for a sign...and lo and behold you came and presented yourself to validate my argument. Thanks! If I have to do a presentation on the subject would you mind sending me an HD full length pic and I'll make a big cardboard 2D pop-up to take along as one my props?  :grin:

Pete - I responded as well as I could to Bryan's enquiry about my direction, but if this is sadly going to turn into more insults then please close the thread and remove my ability to login for good. I've stopped in the odd time over the last few years and certain people - one in particular - seems to take great delight at throwing around insults.
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