December 16, 2018, 10:03:08 AM

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General Discussion / Re: A new thread
Last post by DavidMcClean - December 11, 2018, 11:57:18 AM
Quote from: jiminpa on December 11, 2018, 08:56:15 AMThanks Pete. You'll probably handle this much better than I did. I just got all fired up about the immoral God thing.
...which was why I stated that it was simply my opinion.

Rather than have a mutually respectful intelligent discussion, there then followed an exhausting back and forth that got personal. I was tempted to ask at one point "so since you've not picked up ANY of the points I've made does that mean you agree with them all?". Strange if you disagreed why you didn't want to enter into a discussion, you seemed instead to take the immoral position of attacking me personally.

The sad thing is that when I was in the faith I adopted exactly the same approach, taking the hard line of truth and loading for bear. I believed I was serving God by taking this line.
Now that I'm not in the faith, I see how unloving, judgemental and hard it is and how absolutely off-putting for anyone on the receiving end.

Pete I'm fine for you to close this thread, at the end of the day I'm very happy and content with my position now - indeed I'm happier than I've been for 30 years and have no regrets as to where my journey of enquiry has led me. Indeed every time I come across another believer who deals with me in this sort of manner, it just re-enforces the fact that I'm on the right path and that religion really does take away from our humanity, not add to it.

For the record I do wish it to be clearly understood that I'd have been fine with no-one ever asking for my opinion, I'd have been fine coming here once every few months and posting the odd "hello". But I certainly won't tolerate personal attacks and a lack of respect, especially from those that claim to be living a transformed life.

If we can all behave ourselves and act respectfully towards each other I'm more than happy to discuss anything we want, but not with attitude, flaming or emotion...after all we're all supposed to be grown men :)

Thanks again o/
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General Discussion / Re: A new thread
Last post by jiminpa - December 11, 2018, 08:56:15 AM
Thanks Pete. You'll probably handle this much better than I did. I just got all fired up about the immoral God thing.
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General Discussion / Re: When forgiveness and accou...
Last post by Pete - December 10, 2018, 08:47:48 PM
This is a great topic, which sadly I do not have the time to give a proper response to at the moment. So until I do, I'll refer you to this post I wrote many years ago on the topic of forgiveness entitled 2 minutes and 56.19 seconds.

:afro:
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General Discussion / Re: A new thread
Last post by Pete - December 10, 2018, 08:36:06 PM
Um, wow.

So I've been away on vacation this past weekend and I'm just now checking in, so please forgive my delay in responding...

Dave, I think you've raised some interesting points, and in the interest of a peaceful discussion, I will be happy to respond to what you've said point by point. I'll need some time, but I didn't want you to think I was just ignoring you.

It's not wrong to question things. I am an intellectual, and I over analyze everything, so I understand where you're coming from. The things I believe now are very different from just a few years ago. It seems you and I have asked many of the same questions. We've come to very different conclusions, and I'll explain my journey to you, where I've been, where I'm at and how I got here. I'll respond fully in a few days, so please don't delete your post or leave. There is growth potential here for everyone involved if we approach this correctly.

O0
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General Discussion / Re: A new thread
Last post by jiminpa - December 09, 2018, 10:04:37 PM
Whether you believe it or not I wish you well in your life, and eternity, but if you reject God, and call yourself qualified to judge His morals, neither will go well for you, until you turn to Him.
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General Discussion / Re: A new thread
Last post by DavidMcClean - December 09, 2018, 09:24:53 AM
I find it hard to get my head around why you're so prickly and defensive - seriously you come across as so....angry and unwilling to have a reasonable conversation.

I think this thread has now run it's course as I have - like I said I've asked Pete to remove my account - hopefully he will do so.

I wrote my reply for Bryan and I've said all I have to say on the matter.

It's obvious that you're not interested in a meaningful conversation, just some bizarre form of spiritual ping pong in which you already believe you've won before the game has started.

I've better things to do with my time now, so ciao o/
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General Discussion / Re: A new thread
Last post by jiminpa - December 09, 2018, 08:44:09 AM
Quote from: DavidMcClean on December 09, 2018, 03:28:14 AMWould that be a detailed retraction of the points you levelled against me without even knowing me?
Yes - I'd be interested to read that and I think it would be good for you to articulate it.
Thanking you in advance....
I posted was based on what you said yourself. Again, i'm sorry for the tone, not for the truth. You say I don't know you, and that's mostly true. I know what you posted, in this thread, and it was radiating everything I said in my earlier post.

You make demands of God that He is under no obligation to meet, and you clearly would not accept it even He did. That's all in your post. I don't have to know you.  I can read what you posted.
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General Discussion / Re: A new thread
Last post by DavidMcClean - December 09, 2018, 03:28:14 AM
Quote from: jiminpa on December 08, 2018, 11:08:04 PMI can't apologize for posting what I know to be the truth. I do apologize for the tone.

If you're interested, I can expound.


Would that be a detailed retraction of the points you levelled against me without even knowing me?
Yes - I'd be interested to read that and I think it would be good for you to articulate it.
Thanking you in advance....
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General Discussion / Re: When forgiveness and accou...
Last post by DavidMcClean - December 09, 2018, 03:15:56 AM
"In addition, that man is extremely callous. He has no qualms about killing anyone at all, just for beer money".

Would it be different somehow if you said "that man is extremely callous. He has no qualms about killing anyone at all, just to be able to feed his three hungry grandchildren".

Sorry - but you're justifying the fact that you are judging his motives which only HE knows about.

The crime may be horrible - I'm sure it is....but you DON'T know how he feels. In light of your scriptures you have no right - nada - none - to make a judgement on his inner life. How would you feel if he became a Christian, walked up to you in the street and beamed that he was so excited to be going to heaven?

O but that would NEVER happen....would it?

Be honest with yourself. This is exactly the same thing that happens in the book of Jonah.....

Personally speaking I'd be very pissed off with God, and want the guy in question to fall into my hands so *I* could kill him slowly and painfully. If God decided to save Him, then I think He and I would have a serious falling out.....

You're judging from external result, and using that to reach a conclusion that justifies how you feel.

Your bible says that "God desires truth in the inward parts". Would it not be better to start from a position of honesty rather than dressing up how you feel?

Doesn't it sound kind of like, O I don't know..... "You have been looking for an excuse to hate everything for a long time, and when you couldn't find one, you created one on your own. Congratulations! you are now your own god, and your god is a fool. One day you will face the real God, and you will know exactly how morally inferior you are, and still cling to your arrogance as it drags you to the abyss.".

Wasn't that what you told me in another thread? Telling me what I think, what my motivations were, then writing me off and damning me so you could feel better about yourself in that situation? Didn't Jesus say that if you call another man a fool that you're in danger of the fires of hell?

....judging the inner thoughts of another person based on your own standards?

The fact that you're asking Bryan how HE feels is just deflecting the whole conversation. Who (respectfully) cares what Bryan thinks? HE asked OTHERS how THEY would feel so he could get some reference point in the situation.

Not too many years ago I went to a Christian counsellor. Naturally he wanted to know all about my life and so I told him in detail my story. When it came to the raging anger I felt about my abuse he looked me in the eye and asked, "Have you ever shaved or worn a T shirt with mixed fabric?". I had no idea where he was going and so I replied "Of course" *shrug*. His next statement to me was then "So...you've broken the Old Testament laws....who made YOU the judge since you're just as guilty?".


In response to Bryan's original question - 

"What does it look like when someone offends or harms us, and our response to said actions.  Forgiving them while holding them accountable.  Is such necessary or biblically encouraged? 
IOW, when we tell someone we forgive them is that a free pass for them to continue harming us or are we also allowed to hold people accountable for their actions?"

Jesus said that if your brother sins against you 70 times 7, that you are to forgive. The fact that you or I have a brother who has presumably wronged us so many times means we'd be an idiot not to predict it happening again. "O here comes Bill again *sigh*.....I wonder what he wants this time". But we're told to forgive. NOT to judge.

Did I follow this command when I was in the faith? NO! To be blunt it pissed me off immensely that I was NOT ALLOWED to get my revenge, or even hope that they'd get a divine smack on the day of judgement. 

At a guess....could this be what it says that because of offenses the love of many will grow cold? On human terms it is horrible....to contemplate that the very people who have treated us the worst will somehow find their way into God's good graces and there's not a damn thing we can do about it......
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General Discussion / Re: When forgiveness and accou...
Last post by jiminpa - December 09, 2018, 01:20:27 AM
Bryan, how would you answer that question if it was someone you love dearly in the situation you ask about?
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