Quote from: Bryan on May 27, 2020, 10:30:07 pmMy biggest "grievance" in truth is the idea of predestination and similar ideas, such as found in Romans 9:19-20.  God punishing people who were made to be disobedient.  Or really just the idea of God selecting people for salvation, and as a consequence those not selected are condemned and never really have a chance at salvation because "they arent of the select".  That bugs me greatly and I've prayed about it and continue to but it bothers me still.  Shows my lack of understanding, it truly does.

I don't believe your question is helped by the abundance of false teaching out there on the matter.

Part of the answer to your question comes down to the sovereignty of God.  Is God sovereign?  Well that depends on what context you use the term sovereign.  God is sovereign insomuch as He is the King of the universe; but, contrary to some teachings I have heard, He is not sovereign to the point of controlling the choice that people make.

God made mankind with the capacity to choose (a rather astounding move really).  Has He specifically made any person as one who will always be disobedient to Him and reject Him.  NO!  He has made the person in the way He has made us all; but it is the choice of individuals as to whether or not they follow Him.

Right from the Garden of Eden God has performed Deuteronomy 30:19 for each person's life:
...I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed my live.

He gives us a choice because love without choice cannot be love, nor can it possibly bring any real satisfaction.  Our love for God is satisfying to Him, because we have the choice not to love Him, and therefore our love becomes meaningful.  However, unless we love God we cannot have life.

1 John 1:5 This then is the message that we have heard of him, and declare unto you that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 

To deliberately create people for the sole purpose of destruction IS NOT LOVE.  That is sadistic and not at all of God.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for For can not be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

It is not that God Himself is hardening people's hearts against Him.  God is not willing that any should perish (2 Peter 3:9)  Yet if God created people for destruction then He would be creating people to perish...this would be an outright contradiction.

Rather, because God is not restricted to time, He knows the decisions people are going to make, and knows that there are those who will turn against Him, and those that will receive Him.  For this reason the Lamb of God was slain from the foundation of the earth (Revelation 13:8 ).

Why was the Lamb of God slain?  To take away the sins of the world (John 1:29).  Yet when the earth was originally created (the foundations of the earth) there was no sin in it.  Sin did not enter into the earth until Genesis 3.  So why have the Lamb slain, from the foundation of the earth?  Because God in His omniscience knew that those made in His image, would, because of their choice, sin - walk in a direction contrary to Him, and would need a Saviour. 

Therefore true predestination then is twofold, but is not what many have purported it to be.  If we will receive His Son Jesus Christ, then we are predestined to eternal life (an inevitable outcome).  But if we will not receive His Son Jesus Christ, we are then predestined to eternal damnation (an inevitable outcome).  However, which path the predestination of our life takes, is actually our choice - will we receive Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour, the propitiation for our sins, who being without sin was made sin for us, that we may life through Him?

My biggest "grievance" in truth is the idea of predestination and similar ideas, such as found in Romans 9:19-20.  God punishing people who were made to be disobedient.  Or really just the idea of God selecting people for salvation, and as a consequence those not selected are condemned and never really have a chance at salvation because "they arent of the select".  That bugs me greatly and I've prayed about it and continue to but it bothers me still.  Shows my lack of understanding, it truly does.

Quote from: flaglady on May 26, 2020, 05:16:26 pmI saw!

Yes but have you tried (licking lips)

I am agreeing with you. Here in Australia we have not had anywhere near the number of cases you have had in the states.  We have had less than 30 new cases a day for weeks (normally less then 10 but there have been a couple of cluster outbreaks).  Despite this there are still restrictions across the country.  Some states (my own included) have still got there borders shut to other states, they are starting to open some restaurants and cafe's but only a maximum of 10 customers at a time inside! 

In many ways this whole thing has been overplayed...or was it.  It is seeming more and more like a practice run project to see how well the masses can be controlled, which in itself is concerning.

Without knowing specifics it is hard to answer your question fully.  So:

If you are talking on general points of scripture, the Bible says:
God cannot lie (Numbers 23:19, Titus 1:2, Hebrews 6:18)
And that when there is a discrepancy to "let God be true, but every man a liar" (Romans 3:4)

Having said that, God does invite us to "reason together" with Him (Isaiah 1:18).  When we do this though we must be honest with ourselves and with God, and allow God to speak.

Often though God is needing us to intercede.  His righteousness demands a verdict, but intercession as we see when Abraham stood before him "What if there are 50 righteous" (Genesis 18) kind of deal where that intercession takes into consideration the nature of God (Righteous Judge) and the heart of God (Unconditional Love).  However, we need to allow the Spirit to guide us in this kind of intercession I believe.

I hardly ever visit CF anymore.  The last few times I did it seemed my normal spots have been overrun by rather radical posts.  Not all but it seemed like more than most.  I don't have the patience for it.  Which is funny because I am sure when I started there I could have easily been considered "a radical".

This coronavirus really ended up more prevalent than I first imagined it being, although if I'm going to be blunt I think it's still blown out of proportion.  I think the last statistics I saw were something like 90% of those who got it never even saw the hospital and out of that 10% who did get it on a serious level, only 10% of that number lost their life.

Now I'm not belittling any loss of life, but my point is society is reacting as though contracting the virus is a death sentence for anyone who contracts it when that's just not true.  Actually I remember when the panic first started in earnest, a very high profile politician said just that.  Fear mongering and it's despicable.

Here in the states most states are seeing a downward trend of cases and such and yet several are still in some type of archaic lockdown.  I know people are trying to be wise and we are all doing what we believe is right, but people have lost jobs, businesses, years of dreams and planning that this virus (and the response to it) has ripped away.  The anger is understandable.

I just hope and pray those who have lost something during this time can find some type of recompense at the back end.

I suppose my question is rather simple in truth.  Can a person believe in God and simultaneously disagree with the way things are or even the way God does things?

I understand that God is never wrong and that by consequence if I disagree it shows my lack of understanding, but there are some real issues I feel and I'm trying to find some answer to them.

My faith has evolved and it seems like the deeper it goes the more questions I have.  So who knows, perhaps my faith is stronger than I let on to be.  I know many biblical giants had disagreements with God that were eventually rectified.

But I digress and my question remains.  Is it possible to believe in God, have faith or whatever and yet have disagreements with him.

I'm sorry I've been distant.  I visit semi regularly, but just don't seem to be able to add any depth to the conversation.  That and I'm still struggling just to find some real meaning to my faith.  I do have a rather interesting question I'll ask on a new thread.