His Grace Oasis

General Category => General Discussion => Deeper Fellowship => Topic started by: Leah on November 17, 2008, 12:18:46 am

Title: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Leah on November 17, 2008, 12:18:46 am
A coworker and I were having a good conversation today about christianity. And she said something I thought was really interesting. I said that all sins, from the smallest to the biggest, have been crucified on the cross. Therefore, don't think you're better than someone else just because you don't do those bad things others do or do greater things than everyone else. She agreed and said "If you're going to act like you're a better christian than everyone else, then you yourself should also live up to those standards." (She wasn't saying that to me, but about people who have this I'm-better-than-you attitude).


I never thought of it that way. (http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/smiley.gif)

Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Sarah on November 17, 2008, 12:22:46 am
Yes it is, and I totally agree.  Sin doesn't have a degree, it just is.

Another thing that relates is that God has forgiven Satan too.  This is a tough one but I am really working it out so I can do these things better.
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: The Lord is my banner on November 17, 2008, 04:06:11 am
Quote from: Sarah on November 17, 2008, 12:22:46 am

Another thing that relates is that God has forgiven Satan too. 


Interesting idea, can you explain how you know this?  I have another friend who believes something like that, and I thought she was the only one!   I think she gets a fair bit of stick for it too.
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: sharonl on November 17, 2008, 08:19:00 am
Yes, Sarah - I would like to know a little more about this also.

If Satan is forgiven then why would he be thrown into the lake of fire in the end times? I know that God can forgive but I can't imagine a forgiven person being thrown into the pit of hell for eternity.

Anxious to hear more about this.
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: j4gong on November 17, 2008, 08:26:16 am
God has forgiven, the reason Satan is going to be thrown into the pit is because he has never repented. Satan doesn't believe that he is wrong. You don't have to ask God to forgive you before he does. He automatically does, because he is love and the Bible says that love covers a multitude of sins. We ask God to forgive us as an act of repentance. Hope this helps and makes sense.
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Pete on November 17, 2008, 08:58:54 am
Good points, j4.

Satan is not going to repent.  The Bible tells us this. 

So think about Jesus at Calvary.  Here stands our Savior, being falsely accused, stripped of His clothing, beaten unjustly, mocked, scorned....  and He says to the men that are doing this to Him, "Father, forgive them...."  These men were not the least bit repentant.  And yet Jesus says, amazingly, forgive them.

That is pure, perfect Love, and it's hard for us to wrap our minds around it.

Forgiveness is not about the other person.  It's about you.  It's about you forgiving one person 70 x 7 in one day, one person who sins against you constantly every 2 minutes and 56 seconds for 24 hours straight.  That's a lot of sin!

Repentance, on the other hand, is up to the other person.  The Bible tells us that God is not mocked, and that which you sow, you will also reap.  So if you continue in sin, no matter what it may be, and you never repent, the Bible tells us that you will reap the consequences of that sin.

But that doesn't mean God hasn't forgiven you...

(http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/smiley.gif)
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Pete on November 17, 2008, 09:10:03 am
Quote from: The Lord is my banner on November 17, 2008, 04:06:11 am
I think she gets a fair bit of stick for it too.


We've had people up and leave our church, proclaiming loudly as they go that we're preaching heresy....

Does that count as getting "stick"?

(http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/th_TFRD323.png)
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: sharonl on November 17, 2008, 09:21:39 am
Great thread - it is something I never even gave a thought made very  clear - thank you.
I've learned my 'learn something new every day' goal.
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: j4gong on November 17, 2008, 09:58:12 am
ya Pete that is what getting "stick" is. It is also what Chet was talking about yesterday when it comes to people telling you are wrong and worthless, intead of helping them to heal.
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: DianeL on November 17, 2008, 12:31:09 pm
Good thread, made me think - ouch, brain hurts (http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/azn.gif)
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: The Lord is my banner on November 17, 2008, 12:34:35 pm
Thanks, yes that makes sense. 

Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Wordsmith on November 17, 2008, 04:01:03 pm
Wouldn't this sort of fall under the idea of universal salvation? Because if Satan is forgiven, then every unrepentant, unregenerate is saved. I see no place in Scipture that tells us that Satan has the ability or even the desire to repent. God already knows what is in his heart. And according to scripture his destination is told. However there's a time when death and even hell will thrown into the lake of fire. But the lake of fire remains and was created for Satan and his minions. It really wasn't created for people.
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Pete on November 17, 2008, 04:26:01 pm
Quote from: Wordsmith on November 17, 2008, 04:01:03 pm
Wouldn't this sort of fall under the idea of universal salvation? Because if Satan is forgiven, then every unrepentant, unregenerate is saved. I see no place in Scipture that tells us that Satan has the ability or even the desire to repent. God already knows what is in his heart. And according to scripture his destination is told. However there's a time when death and even hell will thrown into the lake of fire. But the lake of fire remains and was created for Satan and his minions. It really wasn't created for people.


The key is, we are all forgiven.  Everyone of us, no matter what we've done.  But it is up to us to repent and accept that forgiveness.  Here's a statement that will make our minds go (http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/thspeechless-smiley-0101.gif) ... You can be forgiven and still go to hell.  How?  Because it is up to us to repent and receive that forgiveness.

There is no place in scripture that tells us that Satan will repent.  But the question is not is Satan going to repent.  The question is, has God forgiven him.  I think the reason that this is such a hard thing for us to accept is because we have been trained to believe that repentance comes before forgiveness.  But I'm not so sure that's true...

Repentance is not required for forgiveness.  Jesus demonstrated this to us when He said, Father forgive them, all the while these unrepentant men were doing horrible, unjust things to Him.  Jesus didn't wait until they repented.  He asked the Father to forgive them, right then.

However, because the Bible tells us that Satan is and will remain unrepentant, God is not mocked, and Satan will reap what he has sown.  But even so, that doesn't mean God hasn't forgiven him.

So it's not the idea of universal salvation at all.  It's the belief that we ARE forgiven, not because of our repentance, but simply because of what Jesus did on the cross.  When we repent, we receive the benefits of that forgiveness.

(http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Wordsmith on November 17, 2008, 04:37:08 pm
Quote from: Pete on November 17, 2008, 04:26:01 pm
The key is, we are all forgiven.  Everyone of us, no matter what we've done.  But it is up to us to repent and accept that forgiveness.  Here's a statement that will make our minds go (http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/thspeechless-smiley-0101.gif) ... You can be forgiven and still go to hell.  How?  Because it is up to us to repent and receive that forgiveness.

There is no place in scripture that tells us that Satan will repent.  But the question is not is Satan going to repent.  The question is, has God forgiven him.  I think the reason that this is such a hard thing for us to accept is because we have been trained to believe that repentance comes before forgiveness.  But I'm not so sure that's true...

Repentance is not required for forgiveness.  Jesus demonstrated this to us when He said, Father forgive them, all the while these unrepentant men were doing horrible, unjust things to Him.  Jesus didn't wait until they repented.  He asked the Father to forgive them, right then.

However, because the Bible tells us that Satan is and will remain unrepentant, God is not mocked, and Satan will reap what he has sown.  But even so, that doesn't mean God hasn't forgiven him.

So it's not the idea of universal salvation at all.  It's the belief that we ARE forgiven, not because of our repentance, but simply because of what Jesus did on the cross.  When we repent, we receive the benefits of that forgiveness.

(http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/cool.gif)


I've even heard that we're not asked to repent of our sin..those sins we're forgiven at the cross, But we are told to "Repent and believe the Gospel"..so what repentance are we talking about, the sin of unbelief? Or sins of mankind that Jesus already bore?
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Pete on November 17, 2008, 04:54:17 pm
I'm not really talking about repentance at all.  I believe that we should all have repentant hearts, and be quick to repent.

But what we're talking about here is forgiveness.  Repentance is not the catalyst for forgiveness.  Forgiveness exists because of what Jesus did on the cross, not because we repent.

IOW, the causation for forgiveness is not the action of repentance.  Forgiveness exists because of Jesus.  Not because of what we've done, but because of what He has done for us.

(http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: The Lord is my banner on November 17, 2008, 04:57:51 pm
Quote from: Pete on November 17, 2008, 04:26:01 pm

I think the reason that this is such a hard thing for us to accept is because we have been trained to believe that repentance comes before forgiveness.  But I'm not so sure that's true...



Yes!

Because the kindness of God leads to repentance - therefore we must have received His kindness before we repented.
And how did that kindness appear?  In part at least His kindness manifested in forgiveness towards us.

Then we repented - ie. "changed our mind" about God and ourselves.
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Pete on November 17, 2008, 04:59:00 pm
Quote from: The Lord is my banner on November 17, 2008, 04:57:51 pm


Yes!

Because the kindness of God leads to repentance - therefore we must have received His kindness before we repented.
And how did that kindness appear?  In part at least His kindness manifested in forgiveness towards us.

Then we repented - ie. "changed our mind" about God and ourselves.


That's some good stuff!

While we were yet sinners, Christ gave His life for us.  He forgave us before we repented!

:2thumbs:
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Wordsmith on November 17, 2008, 05:04:01 pm
Quote from: Pete on November 17, 2008, 04:54:17 pm
I'm not really talking about repentance at all.  I believe that we should all have repentant hearts, and be quick to repent.

But what we're talking about here is forgiveness.  Repentance is not the catalyst for forgiveness.  Forgiveness exists because of what Jesus did on the cross, not because we repent.

IOW, the causation for forgiveness is not the action of repentance.  Forgiveness exists because of Jesus.  Not because of what we've done, but because of what He has done for us.

(http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/cool.gif)


Sort of got off on that rabbit trail..sorry.

But I agree with you. Really the last thing I was
thinking about was how am I going to repent, when
I first heard the Good News. That came later when
experiancing the love of God. "We love Him, because
He loved us first".. And it's the love of God that constrains us.
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Leah on November 17, 2008, 07:26:55 pm
Hold up a second: are we talking about forgiveness in regards to salvation alone? Because God also said that if we will not forgive others, then neither will He forgive us (which is in regards to sanctification, right?) . 
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Leah on November 17, 2008, 07:31:58 pm
And what does IOW mean? (http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/cheesy.gif)
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Pete on November 17, 2008, 07:41:00 pm
I presume you're referring to this scripture;

Mark 11:25-26 (AMP)
25 And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him and let it drop (leave it, let it go), in order that your Father Who is in heaven may also forgive you your [own] failings and shortcomings and let them drop. 26 But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your failings and shortcomings.

But think about this.  If I am holding on to offense, I am in sin.  Unrepentant sin.  I may not realize it, but by harboring unforgiveness in my heart, I am sinning.

God's forgiveness is always right there, just waiting for us to repent.  He's standing there, like the father in the parable of the prodigal son, watching for us, while we are still afar off, to see any indication of our repentance, so that He may run to us and embrace us.

It's our choice.  We can choose to harbor unforgiveness, or we can choose to "leave it, let it go", and accept His forgiveness.  But it still boils down to the fact that it is our choice whether or not we RECEIVE His forgiveness, which was provided by Jesus.

Also, consider this;

John 20:23 (AMP)
[Now having received the Holy Spirit, and being led and directed by Him] if you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of anyone, they are retained.

This is an interesting passage of scripture.  It seems to be saying that if WE forgive sins (as being led and directed by the Holy Spirit to do so), that they are forgiven.  Think about that!  As directed by the Holy Spirit, we can forgive sins, or hold them against people.

leadworship had some very good thoughts on this scripture.  Maybe he'll pop in and share them.  (http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/th_TFRD323.png)
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Pete on November 17, 2008, 07:42:38 pm
Quote from: Imana on November 17, 2008, 07:31:58 pm
And what does IOW mean? (http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/cheesy.gif)


IOW = In Other Words

www.netlingo.com (http://www.netlingo.com)

(http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Leah on November 17, 2008, 07:44:14 pm
Ok. Makes sense.

thanks, pete! (http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/smiley.gif)
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: leadworship on November 17, 2008, 11:24:49 pm
Quote from: Pete on November 17, 2008, 07:41:00 pm

John 20:23 (AMP)
[Now having received the Holy Spirit, and being led and directed by Him] if you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of anyone, they are retained.

This is an interesting passage of scripture.  It seems to be saying that if WE forgive sins (as being led and directed by the Holy Spirit to do so), that they are forgiven.  Think about that!  As directed by the Holy Spirit, we can forgive sins, or hold them against people.

leadworship had some very good thoughts on this scripture.  Maybe he'll pop in and share them.  (http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/th_TFRD323.png)


That I do!  I'll be back tonight or tomorrow with a response - and a report on what I believe Holy Spirit has revealed to me in this verse.

God Bless you ALL!!
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Sarah on November 18, 2008, 12:17:12 am
Waiting on pins and needles! (http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/th_TFRD323.png)
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: The Lord is my banner on November 18, 2008, 04:04:43 am
Quote from: leadworship on November 17, 2008, 11:24:49 pm


That I do!  I'll be back tonight or tomorrow with a response - and a report on what I believe Holy Spirit has revealed to me in this verse.

God Bless you ALL!!


Look forward to that, because it's a bit of a puzzling verse.

And Pete, as you say, we repent and we forgive as led by the Spirit, but sometimes we haven't reached that point yet - we haven't heard from Him or we've stumbled and not been able to quite sort it - yet we're still in His grace. 

We don't get whopped on the head every time we sin, even though we don't repent within 30 seconds, so how do we account for the process, the time taken, between sin and repentance, between offence and forgiveness?  Surely we're not to interpret this scripture to mean that if we struggle to forgive, or blunder along for a bit in sin and haven't yet repented, that we're under judgement and would not be forgiven ourselves? 
It doesn't make sense, yet that's how it appears.

Sigh.  The Bible seems more full than ever of difficult, difficult things that I once thought I "got" but now see I never really understood.  It wearies me.
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Sarah on November 18, 2008, 09:34:23 am
Quote from: The Lord is my banner on November 18, 2008, 04:04:43 am


Sigh.  The Bible seems more full than ever of difficult, difficult things that I once thought I "got" but now see I never really understood.  It wearies me.


You aren't the only one to feel this way.  Once you get a revelation on one thing it opens the door to [10] more.  We are loved!
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: leadworship on November 18, 2008, 11:48:21 am
Ok, that wonderful verse in John that is rarely ever discussed,

John 20:23 (AMP)
[Now having received the Holy Spirit, and being led and directed by Him] if you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of anyone, they are retained.

I love the way the Amplified Bible puts it - being led and directed by Him.  I was at my father's house one night and we started discussing things, of a variety of sorts, and this came up.  "What does it mean, do you think?"   Well I said, in the off chance of sounding heretical, that we can forgive sins.  I mean, it says IF YOU FORGIVE, not if you ask for forgiveness for one's sins and it doesn't say sins against YOU.  It says SINS.  Of course it would have to be at the Spirit's prompting ( we were reading NASB and ESV at the time, not pulled out the AMP yet).  "Would that be so bad, do you think?"  Well, no, so long as I know and remember it's Christ within me doing the forgiving, not just myself, but forgiving - wouldn't that be just kinda wrong to speak out?

This is where we took what we wanted to know, and found scriptural evidence to support or deny it. 

Well, forgiveness is imparted, or given, right?  Can we not impart things to people?  Wisdom for example?

1 Cor 2:6

6
Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away.


Hmm, yeah, why not?  I believe healing can be imparted, wisdom can - that's Biblical - so why not forgiveness?  That still just sounds wierd to think about.  I know that I hear clearly from Holy Spirit, and I know when and what He's saying, but can I REALLY know that He'd use ME to forgive someone's sins?  That still sounds "iffy".

Ok, logical reasonings then.  Christ was man.  We are His brothers, men.  God used  Holy Spirit to impower Jesus - even Jesus said He would do nothing unless the Father in Heaven command it.  But HOW CAN WE KNOW that the Father in Heaven is commanding us to forgive someone's sins, per se'?  To do that, we'd have to know what the Father is thinking, and we can't do that... can we? My comments in Green.

1 Cor 2:9-16
9
But, as it is written,
[BLOCKQUOTE]
"What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
   nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him"--
[/BLOCKQUOTE]
Now we've all heard that before.  It's been used in sermons to show how awesome God is!  So much that we can't ever imagine how wonderful those things are!!  Right!!!???.... WRONG!  Read on:


10
these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. WHOA!!!?!?!? For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
11
For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Right there... did you see it?  "no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God".  Do we have that spirit?


12
Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. Aparently so!!
13
And we impart this (understanding) in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths (like in John 20:23) to those who are spiritual.


14
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
15
The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
16
"For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

Hallelujah!  We have the MIND OF CHRIST!!

Ok.  So, we see now that we CAN know what the Father's thinking, what His mind is on a matter, because we have been filled with the Holy Spirit, we are taught by Holy Spirit, and our minds do not discern these things, nevertheless we are to have the mind of Christ on it.  So, I ask, is it so far fetched that God would prompt us to tell someone, "Your sins are forgiven you, be healed, go and sin no more."?? No, my friends, it is not.


Now, after you let that sink it - it can take days or months - and after you sheepishly discuss it with a few "trusted" friends in Christ to get their input, what do you do with it?  I mean, I can imagine praying at night and saying "God please forgive their sins" but that's kinda not what John 20:23 is saying.  It doesn't say, If you ASK forgiveness for one's sins.  It's saying IF YOU FORGIVE them.  By this time my dad and I were giggling like little school kids - then the depth of it hit me.  It was as if God dropped a bomb in my spirit and shattered the boundaries I've lived it.  I looked at my dad and said, "Wait - do you realize what this means?  Do you REALLY realize what this means?"  Dad said that God showed him this several years back, but he felt awkward with it and never shared it with people because of the negative reaction and stance people would take with it.  "Dad, have YOU ever forgiven anyone for sins, not committed against you?"  Laughing he said, "No!  I hadn't talked with anyone about it - I wasn't sure of it."

"Dad, this is deep.  What does sin do?"
"It hinders our prayers and ..."
"Right - it restricts communication with God.  It hinders our ability to recieve from Him."
"Yeah, ..."
"What if, the greatest tool the enemy has at his disposal is that we are afraid to use this verse.  We have been blinded by fear of what others might think and say.  We would shake the FOUNDATIONS OF HELL if we started forgiving sins and allowing God to flow freely through someone at that point in time!  This could change the WORLD Dad!!"

We sat in joyful silence as we pondered the magnitude - and he quietly said, "Now you see why I've not said anything.  It's not my place to, God hadn't released me to.  This night is no accident.  We're two men, brothers in Christ flowing in the Holy Spirit letting Him reveal things to us.  You go to your Pastor (his too) and see what he says."  I never do anything in church without my Pastor's full knowledge, and I wanted to start doing this asap - under the condition that it was when and only when HS told me to. 

The only report I wish to give at this time is this:  A few weeks ago my daughter, 4, was struggling sleeping.  She had some nasty congestion and her nose got all runny/stuffy when she laid down.  It was just me and her, and she likes to fall asleep while I pray in tongues quietly in her ear.  I began to pray then I felt the desire to pray for her sinuses.  I did, thanked Jesus for healing her and laid that prayer of faith.  Then, in an instant HS showed me that she was in sin.  She was openly defiant that day to her mom and knew what she was doing wrong.  My heart ached for her, then HS said, "Forgive her sins".  Immediately I said, "Emma, your sins are forgiven by the blood of Jesus Christ.  Holy Spirit, send healing on your wings, and clear her nose, in Jesus most holy and precious Name."  30 seconds later Emma sat up and said, "Dad, I have GOOD air in my nose."  She laid down, sleepily, rolled over breathing in deeply through her nose, "I have good air in my nose daddy, I love you."

God is powerful, and His mysteries are revealed to us through Holy Spirit.  Do nothing unless God leads you to, and His will shall be done.
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: churchlady on November 18, 2008, 12:50:06 pm
Sorry guys, I don't think the scriptures back up the belief that Satan has been offered forgiveness.

Jesus took on Himself the likeness of MAN, not the Devil, to go to the cross as ADAM'S substitute.  He became thereafter, the second Adam, not the second Lucifer.

This is the day of salvation for all of mankind, not all of mankind and demonkind.  The gospel is being preached in all the world to every nation, every tribe so that those who will can be saved.  It says nothing about the gospel being the power of God unto salvation to the fallen angels, but to the sons of men.

The Church is made up of the spiritual descendents of Abraham, and there are no demons among them, including Satan.

I'd have to see some clear evidence from scripture before I'd think differently.
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Pete on November 18, 2008, 01:19:49 pm
That is some POWERFUL stuff, Bob!  Thank you so much for sharing it with us!
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Pete on November 18, 2008, 01:27:13 pm
Quote from: churchlady on November 18, 2008, 12:50:06 pm
Sorry guys, I don't think the scriptures back up the belief that Satan has been offered forgiveness.


It sounds weird, it makes our minds go tilt, and it makes people leave our church screaming loudly as they go.

But consider the alternative;  Is God harboring unforgiveness toward Satan?
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: The Lord is my banner on November 18, 2008, 02:12:03 pm
 
Leadworship, that is an awesome testimony!  (http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/th_TFRD323.png) 

And Pete, that is some reaction in your church!

Quote from: Pete on November 18, 2008, 01:27:13 pm
It sounds weird, it makes our minds go tilt, and it makes people leave our church screaming loudly as they go.

But consider the alternative;  Is God harboring unforgiveness toward Satan?
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Sarah on November 18, 2008, 02:58:03 pm
Oh Bob!  Thank you so much for sharing that.  That is so deep and awesome!  I just wanna do a little dance.


Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: leadworship on November 18, 2008, 03:18:37 pm
Thanks guys!  Oh, and Sarah, it makes me wanna dance too!!


In regards to the devil boi, I think we're barking up the wrong tree.  How can a loving God hate?  He does however, he hates sin.  I agree too, that forgiveness unto salvation is only for we humans.  If you recall Jesus said:

John 3:5  ESV

5
Jesus answered, <WOJ>"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.</WOJ>


We humans are born of water at first birth, and of Spirit in our second birth.  Lucifer was an angel, which to my knowledge were created by God and not born of water.  Therefore he cannot enter the kingdom of God.  Now, in regards to the question "Does God have unforgiveness towards Satan?" I would say that it's a non-issue.  The facts are, God has established his authority in the heavens and on earth.  When you break or revile His authority you pay the price.  Some say, "well my God won't punish someone for eternity just for sinning or not accepting Jesus.  My God is a God of Love."  I say, "All Satan did was want to put his desires over God's, and he was not only banished from heaven (remember the CHIEF angel), but he will be destroyed for it!"  When was the last time you put your desires over God's?  Same thing, but we have Jesus who offered up his blood for our atonement.  God killed MANY people in the old testament - does he offer them forgiveness?  I say no, because they reviled his law and paid the price.  There's not forgiveness needed - you break it you bought it, if you catch my drift.  I think it's niether right nor wrong, simply ungrounded trains of thought.  Remember, you must start with God's Authority as a foundation, and go up from there.
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: leadworship on November 18, 2008, 03:26:05 pm
One more comment on John 20:23:  How often did Jesus forgive sins - as often or moreso than he healed people?  Think about it - which is the greater, or are they tied together? 

As for the latter part of that verse, I am still praying for revelation and instruction on when it would apply.  I struggle with the notion to withhold forgiveness from people, however we have that jurisdiction if led so by Holy Spirit.  How awesome is that - that we might be integral in forgiveness that shoots directly to the throne of grace breaking every blockage and detour on the way up.  Amazing!
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: leadworship on November 18, 2008, 03:30:50 pm
Also, for your viewing pleasure and edited out, here's how another member at those other forums views Satan in regards to this whole mess.  I plucked this from a cherry bush, confronted on it and got no response.  I removed names for anonymity sake, but you might easily guess who it is.

User: It started out as this unfortunate incident and it just grew from there.
Friend:
why do Satan and God never try talking then, to "work things out'?
User:
The more Lucifer tried to get to the bottom of it, the worse They blew Him off
User:
Because God can "never be wrong".
User:
His way of talking it out is to "show Lucifer the error of his thoughts"
User:
Not to listen and understand and just say He is SORRY -- because God never apologizes.
User:
Because God is perfect and believes He does no wrong
User:
And needs everyone else to believe it too
Friend:
but you do not believe it?
User:
[Well according to conventional theology,] He would rather torture Lucifer for eternity and then destroy this beautiful, most beautiful of all archangels, then simply admit He had ANY part in causing Lucifer's pain
Friend:
Wow. I don't know what to say
User: Well now you know the Family Business. L . O . L.


Makes me want to puke.
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Pete on November 18, 2008, 03:38:40 pm
Quote from: leadworship on November 18, 2008, 03:18:37 pm
"Does God have unforgiveness towards Satan?" I would say that it's a non-issue.


But what makes you say it's a non-issue?  I'm curious, because I think it's a valid question.

I think that the issue is getting somewhat confused.  I'm not trying to say that Satan has received forgiveness unto salvation, but what I am saying is that God can not harbor unforgiveness.

In any event, this is all sort of an academic discussion anyway.  The end result for Satan is the same in both scenarios.

(http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Pete on November 18, 2008, 03:40:45 pm
Quote from: leadworship on November 18, 2008, 03:30:50 pm
Also, for your viewing pleasure and edited out, here's how another member at those other forums views Satan in regards to this whole mess.  I plucked this from a cherry bush, confronted on it and got no response.  I removed names for anonymity sake, but you might easily guess who it is.

User: It started out as this unfortunate incident and it just grew from there.
Friend:
why do Satan and God never try talking then, to "work things out'?
User:
The more Lucifer tried to get to the bottom of it, the worse They blew Him off
User:
Because God can "never be wrong".
User:
His way of talking it out is to "show Lucifer the error of his thoughts"
User:
Not to listen and understand and just say He is SORRY -- because God never apologizes.
User:
Because God is perfect and believes He does no wrong
User:
And needs everyone else to believe it too
Friend:
but you do not believe it?
User:
[Well according to conventional theology,] He would rather torture Lucifer for eternity and then destroy this beautiful, most beautiful of all archangels, then simply admit He had ANY part in causing Lucifer's pain
Friend:
Wow. I don't know what to say
User: Well now you know the Family Business. L . O . L.


Makes me want to puke.


(http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/th_scifD36.gif)

Um...  That's a bit...  odd...
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: leadworship on November 18, 2008, 03:41:18 pm
I say it's a non issue because forgiveness is not involved, the way I see it.  Lucifer broke a law, and is punished.  End of story - Do judges hold unforgiveness because they send people to jail when they break the law?  That's what I meant by it being a non-forgiveness issue, and I agree, God harbors to unforgiveness or ill will towards anyone or thing.
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Pete on November 18, 2008, 03:41:36 pm
Quote from: leadworship on November 18, 2008, 03:26:05 pm
One more comment on John 20:23:  How often did Jesus forgive sins - as often or moreso than he healed people?  Think about it - which is the greater, or are they tied together? 

As for the latter part of that verse, I am still praying for revelation and instruction on when it would apply.  I struggle with the notion to withhold forgiveness from people, however we have that jurisdiction if led so by Holy Spirit.  How awesome is that - that we might be integral in forgiveness that shoots directly to the throne of grace breaking every blockage and detour on the way up.  Amazing!


This is definitely something to think on.  I think you've got some great revelation here!

:2thumbs:
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Pete on November 18, 2008, 03:49:39 pm
Quote from: leadworship on November 18, 2008, 03:41:18 pm
I say it's a non issue because forgiveness is not involved, the way I see it.  Lucifer broke a law, and is punished.  End of story - Do judges hold unforgiveness because they send people to jail when they break the law?  That's what I meant by it being a non-forgiveness issue, and I agree, God harbors to unforgiveness or ill will towards anyone or thing.


Ah...  That makes more sense now, and I see where you're coming from.

But in your analogy, the judge may not have been the one that was wronged.  So when they hand out a sentence, they have no personal interest, and therefore, forgiveness is not required of them.

In the case with Satan, Satan went directly against God.  True, God is the righteous Judge, but going back to the analogy of judges in our court system, let's say that a judge's child were murdered, and (I know this would never happen, but stick with me in hypothetical land for a moment (http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/th_TFRD323.png)) they were the judge in the trial of the murderer.  Now that judge would be in the right in sentencing the murderer for violating the law, but another aspect enters in now, because it was the judge that was wronged.  No longer is he simply rendering judgment, but it is also now up to him to decide whether or not he is going to forgive the unrepentant murderer or not.

See what I mean?   Anyway, that's my crazy train of thought here. (http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/th_TFRD323.png)
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: leadworship on November 18, 2008, 04:00:18 pm
I see your point, and I agree, it's a mess of a thought process getting through it, but for some reason I view God as impartial in this case.  True it was Him that was wronged, but even with us there are consequences for reviling His authority.  However I cannot assume that God feels or will feel remorse for the destruction of Lucifer.  His creation and death, and every other angel or spiritual being, to my knowledge does not include a plan of forgiveness and therefore forgiveness wouldn't be a factor in their equation. 

In the example you elaborated on, I would say that God the Father was an impartial judge, judging by the letter of His Authority, and that Holy Spirit was grieved.  I would not say that there was any room or place for unforgiving - especially when the result of one's actions is understood before the action has taken place.  I could be stretching it too far here, but I still don't think forgiveness is even an issue between God and Satan.  lol  I'm such a hard head sometimes (http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/doh.gif)
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Pete on November 18, 2008, 04:34:59 pm
Quote from: leadworship on November 18, 2008, 04:00:18 pm
I'm such a hard head sometimes (http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/doh.gif)


You too?  I thought it was just me... (http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/th_TFRD323.png)
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: leadworship on November 18, 2008, 07:33:33 pm
(http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/th_TFRD323.png)  Like so many other things we have in common, eh!  We're just two peas on a pod!  A God pod!!
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: churchlady on November 18, 2008, 10:49:05 pm
Quote from: Pete on November 18, 2008, 01:27:13 pm
It sounds weird, it makes our minds go tilt, and it makes people leave our church screaming loudly as they go.

But consider the alternative;  Is God harboring unforgiveness toward Satan?


For forgiveness to be available to anyone, there had to be a satisfaction of God's just nature through the blood atonement.  That is the only reason that even WE have available to us, forgiveness.  The blood of Jesus was shed for MANkind. 

There is no indication anywhere in the Word that the blood was shed for angels.  IMO, your church has opened itself to something that is not supported in scripture at all.  That is quite dangerous.
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Pete on November 19, 2008, 12:00:58 am
It is amazing to me how one single statement can change the opinion from...

Quote from: churchlady
I knew you would handle it well, but what I didn't expect was how you would bring in the mandate on love (from scriptures) and insist on THAT being the plumb line of what was tolerated.

Kudos to you my friend!!  A rare one, you are. 


to...

Quote from: churchlady on November 18, 2008, 10:49:05 pm

IMO, your church has opened itself to something that is not supported in scripture at all.  That is quite dangerous.


...in just 3 short months.

Note that this is the same church that has helped to mold me into the "rare one" with a mandate for His Love.  Also note that the point Sarah posted about God having forgiven Satan is something we discussed briefly at church more than a year ago.

This is not a dogmatic point for me, as my discourse with leadworship has shown.  It is something that I (and my church) dared to explore.  It's not "dangerous" to ask the difficult question, does God harbor unforgiveness toward Satan.

Again, I'm not talking about Jesus' shed blood for redemption of Satan.  I am not advocating that Satan will repent, nor am I advocating that because of God's forgiveness, Satan will somehow escape the consequences of his actions.  I am talking about simple forgiveness.  There was no requirement of Jesus' shed blood to forgive.  In fact, Jesus commanded His disciples to forgive 70 x 7, BEFORE He went to the cross.  If His blood atonement was a requirement for them to be able to forgive, He would have been asking them to do something impossible for them to do.

So if God IS Love, and Love keeps no records of wrongs, how can God harbor unforgiveness toward Satan?

Note that all of what I've just posted finds plenty of support in scripture.

In any event, that's the "dangerous" question that we've dared to explore.  I'm open to discussion and hearing other's thoughts, but I'd prefer to do it without snap judgments on my church.[/SIZE]
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Wordsmith on November 19, 2008, 01:07:01 am
I think we can hope for alot of things as far as the devil being forgiven. We can make things fit because it makes everyone feel good. But scripture spacificly says that the angels that left their first estate are reserved unto "everlasting chains" until judgement of eternal fire as is the people of Sodom and Gomorrha

Jud 1:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jud&c=1&v=6&t=KJV#comm/6)And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jud 1:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jud&c=1&v=6&t=KJV#comm/7)Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


Now if God is going to extend grace and mercy to the devil, what about all the rest?
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Pete on November 19, 2008, 08:57:58 am
Quote from: Wordsmith on November 19, 2008, 01:07:01 am
I think we can hope for alot of things as far as the devil being forgiven. We can make things fit because it makes everyone feel good.


I would have to disagree.  Thinking that God has forgiven Satan doesn't make everyone feel good.  It's offensive.  How could God forgive such an incredible act of betrayal and defiance?  That doesn't make us feel good at all, because if there is Truth in it, it makes our grudges and offenses seem highly insignificant.

Quote from: Wordsmith on November 19, 2008, 01:07:01 am

But scripture spacificly says that the angels that left their first estate are reserved unto "everlasting chains" until judgement of eternal fire as is the people of Sodom and Gomorrha

Jud 1:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jud&c=1&v=6&t=KJV#comm/6)And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jud 1:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jud&c=1&v=6&t=KJV#comm/7)Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


Now if God is going to extend grace and mercy to the devil, what about all the rest?


Who said anything about grace and mercy being extended to the devil?  Who said anything about Jesus' blood being shed for angels?

What we have here is a failure to communicate.  I am not talking about the remission of Satan's sin.  I am not talking about grace and mercy.  I am talking about simple forgiveness.

That's probably why this sounds "dangerous" to some people, because I'm not saying anything remotely like the "dangerous" things that are being proposed.

Does God harbor unforgiveness toward Satan?  I say no.  leadworship says that forgiveness was not even an issue for the reasons he stated.  But AGAIN....

Quote from: Pete on November 19, 2008, 12:00:58 am

Again, I'm not talking about Jesus' shed blood for redemption of Satan.  I am not advocating that Satan will repent, nor am I advocating that because of God's forgiveness, Satan will somehow escape the consequences of his actions.  I am talking about simple forgiveness.  There was no requirement of Jesus' shed blood to forgive.  In fact, Jesus commanded His disciples to forgive 70 x 7, BEFORE He went to the cross.  If His blood atonement was a requirement for them to be able to forgive, He would have been asking them to do something impossible for them to do.



I fully believe that Satan will face judgment and the consequences of his actions, because I believe that the blood of Jesus was NOT for redemption of sin, or grace and mercy to be shown to Satan, but to mankind, born of water and of the Spirit.

So I can't answer the hypothetical question based on the premise of something that I don't believe at all.
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: The Lord is my banner on November 19, 2008, 10:07:29 am
 
Quote from: Pete on November 19, 2008, 08:57:58 am
I fully believe that Satan will face judgment and the consequences of his actions, because I believe that the blood of Jesus was NOT for redemption of sin, or grace and mercy to be shown to Satan, but to mankind, born of water and of the Spirit.


Agreed.


But...

There is one scripture that implies that Jesus' blood has bought peace for more than mankind. 
What do we do with this?

Colossians 1:19,20 says of Jesus:




For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,

andthrough him to reconcile to himself all things,
whether things on earthor things in heaven,
by making peace through his blood, shed on thecross.

Reconciliation and peace for ALL things?!    (http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/thspeechless-smiley-0101.gif)
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Wordsmith on November 19, 2008, 02:09:08 pm
QuoteI fully believe that Satan will face judgment and the consequences of his actions, because I believe that the blood of Jesus was NOT for redemption of sin, or grace and mercy to be shown to Satan, but to mankind, born of water and of the Spirit.


IF you find it offensive to feel good about the possiblity that God would restore the fallen part of His government,  I just don't know why. It wasn't meant to offend anybody, Pete.  Only in the plan of redemption is found forgiveness. They type of forgiveness where comitted offenses aren't remembered anymore. I was asking how can there be forgiveness for Satan, and still remember those offenses, and know by scripture that the prince of this world has already been judged. God was being a just judge. Then I'm saying that forgiveness was not an issue with God, in the case of Satan.
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Pete on November 19, 2008, 03:01:39 pm
Quote from: Wordsmith on November 19, 2008, 02:09:08 pm
IF you find it offensive to feel good about the possiblity that God would restore the fallen part of His government,  I just don't know why. It wasn't meant to offend anybody, Pete.


I wasn't offended by anything you said.  What I was trying to say is that people may tend to find offensive the idea that God would forgive Satan.

Quote from: Wordsmith on November 19, 2008, 02:09:08 pm
Only in the plan of redemption is found forgiveness.


Was anyone forgiven before Jesus shed His blood for us?  Did Jesus not tell His disciples to forgive those who sinned against them BEFORE He went to the cross?

I think the big reason we're having this discussion is because it keeps coming up that it is only the plan of redemption that forgiveness can exist.  But I'm not talking about forgiveness unto salvation.  I am talking about simple forgiveness, like when someone does something wrong against you, is unrepentant, and you still forgive them.  It has nothing to do with salvation or redemption.  It has nothing to do with grace and/or mercy.  It has to do with simple forgiveness.

Quote from: Wordsmith on November 19, 2008, 02:09:08 pmThey type of forgiveness where comitted offenses aren't remembered anymore. I was asking how can there be forgiveness for Satan, and still remember those offenses, and know by scripture that the prince of this world has already been judged. God was being a just judge. Then I'm saying that forgiveness was not an issue in the case of Satan.


And that marries up with what leadworship was saying. I'm not claiming to have a full revelation or understanding of this.  But what I am simply trying to say is that unforgiveness does not exist in God toward anything.  That is my only point in this whole discourse.

I think we would agree that unforgiveness does not exist in God.  Where we seem to differ is that while I say the reason unforgiveness doesn't exist in God is because Satan is forgiven, the other point of view is that forgiveness wasn't required at all, and so therefore, there is no unforgiveness in God.

In any event, it's all an academic discussion.  The end result?  We agree that there is no unforgiveness in God, and Satan will face the consequences of his actions.

(http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Wordsmith on November 19, 2008, 04:32:30 pm
QuoteI think we would agree that unforgiveness does not exist in God.



I don't agree with that either. If you blaspheme the Holy Spirit you will not be forgiven. In this
life or in the next.
I don't believe that God is just a state of being of complete forgivness without thought and discision making abilities.
For that matter satan did blaspheme the Holy Spirit by trying to userp Gods authority. He chose
to do this all on his own, without temptation of an outside source to be tempted. That's what being the epidome of iniquity without help, or temptation can be.
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Pete on November 19, 2008, 04:58:11 pm
Quote from: Wordsmith on November 19, 2008, 04:32:30 pm

I don't agree with that either.



Then do you believe that God has commanded us to forgive the unrepentant, while He does not do that Himself, or do you believe that there are times when we too should withhold our forgiveness, or is the belief that it's because we're talking about Satan instead of man, the rules are different?

Quote from: Wordsmith on November 19, 2008, 04:32:30 pm
If you blaspheme the Holy Spirit you will not be forgiven. In this life or in the next.


I'm not sure that any of us understand what that actually means.  In the simplest of definitions, blaspheme (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/blaspheme) simply means to speak of or address with irreverence.  Going by that definition, we're all screwed.

Jesus said it, so it must be True.  But what does it really mean to "blaspheme the Holy Spirit"?

Quote from: Wordsmith on November 19, 2008, 04:32:30 pm
I don't believe that God is just a state of being of complete forgivness without thought and discision making abilities.


And here we go again...  I never even implied that God was without thought and/or decision making abilities.
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Wordsmith on November 19, 2008, 05:06:11 pm
Quote from: Pete on November 19, 2008, 04:58:11 pm
Then do you believe that God has commanded us to forgive the unrepentant, while He does not do that Himself, or do you believe that there are times when we too should withhold our forgiveness, or is the belief that it's because we're talking about Satan instead of man, the rules are different?

I'm not sure that any of us understand what that actually means.  In the simplest of definitions, blaspheme (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/blaspheme) simply means to speak of or address with irreverence.  Going by that definition, we're all screwed.

Jesus said it, so it must be True.  But what does it really mean to "blaspheme the Holy Spirit"?

And here we go again...  I never even implied that God was without thought and/or decision making abilities.


I never said you said those things Pete.. I said I don't think. I was trying to explain the difference in humanity being deceived, and Satan was not. That's all. And that I don't believe that God is totally absent of the ability to not forgive concerning the devil. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit,  if Satan didn't commit it, then I have no idea what it would take to say what it consists of. I would think that creating war in Heaven against all that's Holy would be a good start.
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Pete on November 19, 2008, 05:11:58 pm
Quote from: Wordsmith on November 19, 2008, 05:06:11 pm

I never said you said those things Pete.. I said I don't think. I was trying to explain the difference in humanity being deceived, and Satan was not. That's all.


Gotcha.  (http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/smiley.gif)

Quote from: Wordsmith on November 19, 2008, 05:06:11 pm
And that I don't believe that God is totally absent of the ability to not forgive concerning the devil. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit if Satan didn't commit it, then I have no idea what it would take to say what it consists of. I would think that creating war in Heaven against all that's Holy would be a good start.



I understand, and those are good thoughts.

I apologize for my unnecessarily defensive posts in this thread.  I must confess, much of my response is probably tainted by real life experiences of people who have said nasty things about me, my family and my church family.

I appreciate and thank you for taking the time to explain to me what you believe and why.  You've given me lots to think about.
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: The Lord is my banner on November 19, 2008, 05:15:28 pm
Quote from: The Lord is my banner on November 19, 2008, 10:07:29 am

Colossians 1:19,20

Reconciliation and peace for ALL things?!    (http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/thspeechless-smiley-0101.gif)


Just throwing this in again to see if anyone notices!  (http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/th_TFRD323.png)
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Pete on November 19, 2008, 05:16:05 pm
Quote from: The Lord is my banner on November 19, 2008, 05:15:28 pm
Just throwing this in again to see if anyone notices!  (http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/th_TFRD323.png)


My thoughts at the moment?

(http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/thspeechless-smiley-0101.gif)


(http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/th_TFRD323.png)
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: The Lord is my banner on November 19, 2008, 05:20:11 pm
LOL!

(http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/afro.gif)
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Wordsmith on November 19, 2008, 05:55:30 pm
QuotePete..I apologize for my unnecessarily defensive posts in this thread.  I must confess, much of my response is probably tainted by real life experiences of people who have said nasty things about me, my family and my church family.


I understand fully, been there myself. Thank you so much.
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Wordsmith on November 19, 2008, 06:04:43 pm
Quote from: The Lord is my banner on November 19, 2008, 05:15:28 pm
Just throwing this in again to see if anyone notices!  (http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/th_TFRD323.png)



Oh, man...I'm getting a headache LOL....All things huh?
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: The Lord is my banner on November 19, 2008, 06:07:42 pm
 
Quote from: Wordsmith on November 19, 2008, 06:04:43 pm


Oh, man...I'm getting a headache LOL....All things huh?


Yup, sorry, that's what it says!   (http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/noidea.gif)


Here, take a nice cup of tea and a Nurofen, the pain will go away.  (http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/th_TFRD323.png)



Night night folks.  Have fun!
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: churchlady on November 19, 2008, 09:22:07 pm
Quote from: Pete on November 19, 2008, 12:00:58 am
It is amazing to me how one single statement can change the opinion from...


Quote
I knew you would handle it well, but what I didn't expect was how you would bring in the mandate on love (from scriptures) and insist on THAT being the plumb line of what was tolerated.

Kudos to you my friend!! A rare one, you are.

[/SIZE]
to...

QuoteIMO, your church has opened itself to something that is not supported in scripture at all.  That is quite dangerous.




Quote...in just 3 short months.


I can see that you are very offended by what I have written, Pete....which takes me by surprise, actually. I really didn't mean it as a snap judgement of your church or of any change of how I see you.  My intended focus was entirely on the idea being discussed and obviously it's a doctrinal position that disturbs me.  So please forgive me if what I said came across to you as harsh accusations.  That wasn't my intention, believe me. 


QuoteNote that this is the same church that has helped to mold me into the "rare one" with a mandate for His Love.  Also note that the point Sarah posted about God having forgiven Satan is something we discussed briefly at church more than a year ago.

This is not a dogmatic point for me, as my discourse with leadworship has shown.  It is something that I (and my church) dared to explore.  It's not "dangerous" to ask the difficult question, does God harbor unforgiveness toward Satan.

I agree that it's not dangerous to ask difficult questions or explore ideas.  I believe what made me think it was an accepted fact being advocated by you and your church was that it was first stated as a fact...("God has forgiven Satan too" ) and then when j4gong (who I believe is a member of your church) expounded further on the subject and you agreed with her in the next post...........then I assumed it to be an already accepted belief of your church instead of just something under discussion over a year ago.

QuoteAgain, I'm not talking about Jesus' shed blood for redemption of Satan.  I am not advocating that Satan will repent, nor am I advocating that because of God's forgiveness, Satan will somehow escape the consequences of his actions.  I am talking about simple forgiveness.  There was no requirement of Jesus' shed blood to forgive.  In fact, Jesus commanded His disciples to forgive 70 x 7, BEFORE He went to the cross.  If His blood atonement was a requirement for them to be able to forgive, He would have been asking them to do something impossible for them to do.

So if God IS Love, and Love keeps no records of wrongs, how can God harbor unforgiveness toward Satan?

Note that all of what I've just posted finds plenty of support in scripture. 


I think the question to ask here is....what do YOU mean by forgiveness?  The common definition of the word means......absolutions, remission, amnesty, exoneration, pardon, acquittal...etc.

If God has given this to Satan, and the only reason that Satan doesn't enjoy these benefits is because he won't repent (as you earlier stated), then God is able to remit/pardon sins without the shedding of blood, because I agree with you that the atonement of Christ was for mankind only.  If the Devil can have the pardon of his sins without the shedding of blood, then why was it necessary for God to exonerate us by Christ's blood?

So, I guess where I am confused is....what does this forgiveness that you believe God offers to Satan give him.......what does it do?
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Pete on November 19, 2008, 09:56:14 pm
Quote from: churchlady on November 19, 2008, 09:22:07 pm

I can see that you are very offended by what I have written, Pete....which takes me by surprise, actually. I really didn't mean it as a snap judgement of your church or of any change of how I see you.  My intended focus was entirely on the idea being discussed and obviously it's a doctrinal position that disturbs me.  So please forgive me if what I said came across to you as harsh accusations.  That wasn't my intention, believe me. 



Understood.  Please forgive me for misreading your intention and reacting instead of responding.  As I explained in an earlier post, I apologize for my unnecessarily defensive response.

Quote from: churchlady on November 19, 2008, 09:22:07 pm
I think the question to ask here is....what do YOU mean by forgiveness?  The common definition of the word means......absolutions, remission, amnesty, exoneration, pardon, acquittal...etc.



The first definition of forgive (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/forgive) in the dictionary is to give up resentment of or claim to requital for.  That is what I am talking about.  God isn't holding a grudge, or looking to "get even" with Satan.  That's all I'm trying to say.  Satan will face righteous judgment because of his actions.

Quote from: churchlady on November 19, 2008, 09:22:07 pm
If God has given this to Satan, and the only reason that Satan doesn't enjoy these benefits is because he won't repent (as you earlier stated), then God is able to remit sins without the shedding of blood, because I agree with you that the atonement of Christ was for mankind only.  If the Devil can have the pardon of his sins without the shedding of blood, then why was it necessary for God to exonerate us by Christ's blood?



Here's a troublesome passage of scripture to that line of thought;

Mark 2:5-10 (NIV)
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."  6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7 "Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?" 8 Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, "Why are you thinking these things? 9 Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, take your mat and walk'? 10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins . . . ."...


At this point, no blood has been shed by Christ.  In fact, NO blood was shed at all, not even an animal's blood.  So then the question could just as easily be asked, if the paralytic can have the pardon of his sins without the shedding of blood, then why was it necessary for God to exonerate us by Christ's blood?

Quote from: churchlady on November 19, 2008, 09:22:07 pm
So, I guess where I am confused is....what does this forgiveness that you believe God offers to Satan give him.......what does it do?


This, for me, has nothing to do with Satan, and everything to do with the nature of God.  It has to do with the belief that God can not harbor unforgiveness.
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Wordsmith on November 19, 2008, 10:48:43 pm
Quoteby Pete...This, for me, has nothing to do with Satan, and everything to do with the nature of God.  It has to do with the belief that God can not harbor unforgiveness.


But can't God issue righteous judgement as the just judge? What does harboring unforgivness have to do with what He judges as right? If a judge decides that someone is going to prison for the rest of his life, it's based on the offense committed,  not how the judge feels about it. So where does God holding unforgiveness because the person was sentanced for the offenses come in?
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: churchlady on November 19, 2008, 11:08:56 pm
Quote from: Pete on November 19, 2008, 09:56:14 pmUnderstood.  Please forgive me for misreading your intention and reacting instead of responding.  As I explained in an earlier post, I apologize for my unnecessarily defensive response.


All is well.


QuoteThe first definition of forgive (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/forgive) in the dictionary is to give up resentment of or claim to requital for.  That is what I am talking about.  God isn't holding a grudge, or looking to "get even" with Satan.  That's all I'm trying to say.  Satan will face righteous judgment because of his actions.


If this is all you mean by unforgiveness (holding a grudge or wanting to get even), then I think we would all agree that this is not God's nature.  I am surprised that anyone would leave your church over this definition.


QuoteHere's a troublesome passage of scripture to that line of thought;

Mark 2:5-10 (NIV)
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."  6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7 "Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?" 8 Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, "Why are you thinking these things? 9 Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, take your mat and walk'? 10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins . . . ."...


At this point, no blood has been shed by Christ.  In fact, NO blood was shed at all, not even an animal's blood.  So then the question could just as easily be asked, if the paralytic can have the pardon of his sins without the shedding of blood, then why was it necessary for God to exonerate us by Christ's blood?


This passage doesn't trouble me because it is understood that the "lamb was slain before the foundation of the world", so that those under the Old Covenant and those under the New Covernant are alike saved by faith...............one in the coming Messiah, and the other in the 'having-come' Messiah.

While those under the Old Covenant couldn't yet experience the indwelling Christ, they could most definitely experience the forgiveness of their sins committed while still in their flesh through the sacrifices made by the levitical priesthood. 

Hebrews 9: 13-14  "For if the blood of bulls and of goats and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh;  how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"
QuoteThis, for me, has nothing to do with Satan, and everything to do with the nature of God.  It has to do with the belief that God can not harbor unforgiveness.


Well now that I know you just mean a "grudge" or "wanting to get even", I would agree.  If people are leaving your church, shouting heresy, they are getting a different impression of what your church means by forgiveness than what you state here.
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Pete on November 19, 2008, 11:23:53 pm
Quote from: Wordsmith on November 19, 2008, 10:48:43 pm
But can't God issue righteous judgement as the just judge?


Yes.

Quote from: Wordsmith on November 19, 2008, 10:48:43 pm

What does harboring unforgivness have to do with what He judges as right?



Nothing.

Quote from: Wordsmith on November 19, 2008, 10:48:43 pm

If a judge decides that someone is going to prison for the rest of his life, it's based on the offense committed,  not how the judge feels about it. So where does God holding unforgiveness because the person was sentanced for the offenses come in?


I'm not sure I understand what you're asking.

You said earlier you disagree that God can not harbor unforgiveness.  I don't understand that.  It is one thing to say that forgivness is a non-issue, which it seemed to me like what you were originally saying.  But now you seem to be saying (and correct me if I'm wrong) that you believe that God CAN harbor unforgiveness. That's different than it not being an issue at all.

(http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/thspeechless-smiley-0101.gif)
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Pete on November 19, 2008, 11:41:01 pm
Quote from: churchlady on November 19, 2008, 11:08:56 pm

All is well.

If this is all you mean by unforgiveness (holding a grudge or wanting to get even), then I think we would all agree that this is not God's nature.  I am surprised that anyone would leave your church over this definition.



It doesn't surprise me in the least.  We've had people leave our church because they didn't like the color we painted the walls.

And it's not like it's some bizarre definition of forgiveness.  It's the Merriam-Webster definition of what forgiveness is.  As Christians we attach a whole lot of connotations to the word "forgiveness" that do not otherwise exist in the simple definition of the word "forgiveness".

Quote from: churchlady on November 19, 2008, 11:08:56 pm

This passage doesn't trouble me because it is understood that the "lamb was slain before the foundation of the world", so that those under the Old Covenant and those under the New Covernant are alike saved by faith...............one in the coming Messiah, and the other in the 'having-come' Messiah.

While those under the Old Covenant couldn't yet experience the indwelling Christ, they could most definitely experience the forgiveness of their sins committed while still in their flesh through the sacrifices made by the levitical priesthood. 

Hebrews 9: 13-14  "For if the blood of bulls and of goats and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh;  how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"   



Correct.  But in the case of the paralytic, NO sacrifice was made.  There was no animal sacrifice, and Jesus had not yet gone to the cross.  Yet He still said to the man, "Your sins are forgiven", without any sacrifice of any kind.  That seems in violation of how atonement is made for sins, which is why the teachers of the law were upset when He said it.  It's a perplexing scripture, as is much of Jesus ministry on earth. 

Quote from: churchlady on November 19, 2008, 11:08:56 pm
Well now that I know you just mean a "grudge" or "wanting to get even", I would agree.  If people are leaving your church, shouting heresy, they are getting a different impression of what your church means by forgiveness than what you state here.


I suppose it's possible, but I doubt it.  Like I said, I've seen a lot of people come and go from my church in the 29 years I've attended, for various reasons.

Now that I think about it, it's really not that much different than discussing the belief that Jesus died spiritually, and was separated from God.  People assign all kinds of wrong meanings to that, and fight over it intensely, as if our finite minds are able to comprehend precisely what happened between the crucifixion and the resurrection.  Why?  Because they make a ton of ASSUMPTIONS, and then when you try to explain to them what you REALLY believe, they've already made up their mind.

That is usually why people have left our church over the years over doctrinal differences.
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: churchlady on November 19, 2008, 11:56:37 pm
Quote from: The Lord is my banner on November 19, 2008, 10:07:29 am
There is one scripture that implies that Jesus' blood has bought peace for more than mankind.   
What do we do with this?

Colossians 1:19,20 says of Jesus:  For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earthor things in heaven,
by making peace through his blood, shed on thecross.  Reconciliation and peace for ALL things?!   


Since the fall of man, all of creation has been out of sorts, corrupted, moving more and more toward chaos and brokeness (law of entropy).  God's nature is truth, love, law, order, justice, holiness, wholeness, beauty, perfection, etc. etc.  All of creation will one day be brought back to the state of pre-fall conditions, perfectly reconiled to God's nature.

One meaning of the word 'reconcile' is 'restore'. 

This is my 2 cents, anyway.
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: churchlady on November 20, 2008, 12:21:09 am
Quote from: Pete on November 19, 2008, 11:41:01 pm
And it's not like it's some bizarre definition of forgiveness.  It's the Merriam-Webster definition of what forgiveness is.  As Christians we attach a whole lot of connotations to the word "forgiveness" that do not otherwise exist in the simple definition of the word "forgiveness".


I use an electronic Merriam-Webster Dictionary and Thesaurus and the definition that it gives for forgiveness is.....

noun - release from guilt........

with synonyms: absolution, remission, shrift, amnesty, exoneration, pardon, forgiveness, acquittal........and

antonym: conviction.

I think this is more how people think when the word forgiveness is used.
 
QuoteCorrect.  But in the case of the paralytic, NO sacrifice was made.  There was no animal sacrifice, and Jesus had not yet gone to the cross.  Yet He still said to the man, "Your sins are forgiven", without any sacrifice of any kind.  That seems in violation of how atonement is made for sins, which is why the teachers of the law were upset when He said it.  It's a perplexing scripture, as is much of Jesus ministry on earth.


I'm not sure I get where you are coming from on this one.  The levitical priesthood was in place during this time, with it's once a year atonement (covering) sacrifice for the people, along with the periodic specific sacrifices that people could make.  Why do you assume this man was not an observer of these things, showing his faith for a coming Messiah?

The teachers of the law were upset because here is Jesus who is not a levitical priest, assuming to do what they thought only such a priest could do?  They couldn't see that He was the very "lamb that was slain", which the levitical priesthood shadowed.
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Wordsmith on November 20, 2008, 01:45:32 am
Quote from: Pete on November 19, 2008, 11:23:53 pm

Yes.
 
Nothing.
 

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking.

You said earlier you disagree that God can not harbor unforgiveness.  I don't understand that.  It is one thing to say that forgivness is a non-issue, which it seemed to me like what you were originally saying.  But now you seem to be saying (and correct me if I'm wrong) that you believe that God CAN harbor unforgiveness. That's different than it not being an issue at all.

(http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/thspeechless-smiley-0101.gif)


Am I making your eyes do that Pete? LOL..I'm sorry.

What I'm saying that even though God is the righteous judge that
He is, and some will be punished, doesn't mean that God is holding grudges, or harboring
unforgiveness if they're sentenced. Most people send themselves to judgement. God doesn't have to do anything at all.   So in that respect He's just being the righteous Judge
that He is, minus all the human frailties such as harboring unforgivness. It's not needed or present.  Not that He doesn't have the ablility to choose not to forgive. He chose to commended His love towards us. He chose to do so through
His Son. God made a choice. I'm glad for all of us that He did. So God has the ability to chose to do whatever He so chooses.
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: The Lord is my banner on November 20, 2008, 04:24:08 am
 
Quote from: churchlady on November 19, 2008, 11:56:37 pm


Since the fall of man, all of creation has been out of sorts, corrupted, moving more and more toward chaos and brokeness (law of entropy).  God's nature is truth, love, law, order, justice, holiness, wholeness, beauty, perfection, etc. etc.  All of creation will one day be brought back to the state of pre-fall conditions, perfectly reconiled to God's nature.

One meaning of the word 'reconcile' is 'restore'. 

This is my 2 cents, anyway.


Yes, totally understand that.

But satan, fallen angels, unrepentant humans are also part of that creation, so where does this verse leave room for non-reconciliation of any of those?




Another question for everyone -

We're trying to define forgiveness based on an English dictionary, but do any of you understand Greek and Hebrew in order to be certain that they were all talking about the same thing we are?
I know those languages usually have a greater, richer meaning per word than we do, so might we be missing something?
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Pete on November 20, 2008, 08:57:00 am
Quote from: churchlady on November 20, 2008, 12:21:09 am

I use an electronic Merriam-Webster Dictionary and Thesaurus and the definition that it gives for forgiveness is.....

noun - release from guilt........


It's odd that the electronic Merriam-Webster dictionary would give a different definition than the online Merriam-Webster dictionary, but I guess it just goes to show how many different ways one word can be defined.  In any event, the definition of the word "forgive" from the online Merriam-Webster dictionary can be seen here;

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/forgive (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/forgive) : 

1 a : to give up resentment of or claim to requital for <forgive an insult> b : to grant relief from payment of <forgive a debt>   

2 : to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) : pardon<forgive one's enemies>intransitive verb


Quote from: churchlady on November 20, 2008, 12:21:09 am

with synonyms: absolution, remission, shrift, amnesty, exoneration, pardon, forgiveness, acquittal........and



Well, sure, you could use the word forgive in any of those cases.  But we should also remember that a synonym has a similar (but not the same) meaning as the original word.

Quote from: churchlady on November 20, 2008, 12:21:09 am
   
I'm not sure I get where you are coming from on this one.  The levitical priesthood was in place during this time, with it's once a year atonement (covering) sacrifice for the people, along with the periodic specific sacrifices that people could make.  Why do you assume this man was not an observer of these things, showing his faith for a coming Messiah?



Why do you assume that he was?  (http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/winkcheeky.gif)

Mark 2:3-10 (NIV)
3 Some men came, bringing to him a paralytic, carried by four of them. 4 Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus and, after digging through it, lowered the mat the paralyzed man was lying on. 5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven." 6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7 "Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?" 8 Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, "Why are you thinking these things? 9 Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, take your mat and walk'? 10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins . . . ." ...

This is particularly interesting, because it says when Jesus saw, not the faith of the paralytic, but the faith of his friends, He said to the paralytic, "Your sins are forgiven".  From this account, no sacrifice had been made, and it wasn't even the faith of the paralytic that Jesus was making this statement in response to.

Then, Jesus says something else.  "...that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins..."  This is an interesting statement.  Jesus is not saying here that the forgiveness that He gives is because of the sacrifices of the Levitical priesthood, nor is He even stating that it is because of His shed blood.  He is simply stating that HE has authority to forgive sins on earth, before He went to the cross.  No wonder the teachers of the law thought He was speaking blasphemy!

My mind can't comprehend how that's possible, knowing that it is through the shed blood of Jesus that we are saved.  I know by faith that what Jesus said here is True.  But the thought that Jesus' authority to forgive sin while still on earth was related to the annual atonement of the Levitical priests is not something that His statement supports, IMO.
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: churchlady on November 20, 2008, 08:59:06 am
Quote from: The Lord is my banner on November 20, 2008, 04:24:08 am
We're trying to define forgiveness based on an English dictionary, but do any of you understand Greek and Hebrew in order to be certain that they were all talking about the same thing we are?
I know those languages usually have a greater, richer meaning per word than we do, so might we be missing something?


Very good point, Sue.  (http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/doh.gif)Here's something interesting in that regard........

Lost in translation
When an English-speaking person hears a Bible term, he perceives its meaning according to his present day understanding of the English language. The term he hears may mean one thing to him, while the Greek or Hebrew word has a specific meaning within the given context. Numerous times a word translated from Hebrew in the Old Testament would be repeated in the New Testament. The challenge there was that a Greek word could not be found to carry the meaning without losing its significance. The English translators found it necessary to use words that actually diminished or altered its original intent in the Hebrew text. The word "forgive" is a prime example of how meanings can be lost in translation.
The Hebrew word translated "forgive" means "forgive."  While Jesus walked on this earth, the Jews were still under the Law. They understood forgiveness according to their Hebrew language and how the blood atonement preceded forgiveness. Jesus used the word "forgiveness," and in some instances Paul and others would use the word "forgiveness."  But in both cases, they were addressing the Jews - not Gentiles.
There are four Greek words translated into the English word "forgive."
1. Aphiemi means "to send forth," and was translated "forgive" in Matthew 6:12: "And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors." This was in reference to the relationships between people.
Several other words were used to translate the same Greek word, with none being synonymous with "forgive". It is vital that we grasp this. For example, these are some of the words that were used: "uttered" (Mark 15:37), "left" (Mark 1:18), "neglecting" (Mark 7:8), and "did not allow" (Luke 8:51 NAS).
2. Aphesis means "freedom" (or "pardon").  The translators used four English words to convey its meaning: "forgiveness," "liberty," "release," and "remission." Whichever of the preceding six words we use, the intent is to describe the gift Jesus provided through His shed blood. For example, He granted "forgiveness" [pardon] to all - we need not ask for it. Like He said, "It is finished." (John 19:30) The Greek definition for "finished" is "to end, that is, complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt)." Jesus provided "freedom" from flesh and its penalty of death, and now man must surrender his self-life - the flesh-life - to the regeneration by the Holy Spirit. The pardon provided through the blood of Jesus canceled the death sentence upon flesh for all who would receive Life in God's only begotten Son.
This next verse uses two of the synonyms for "pardon."
- "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he anointed me to preach good tidings to the poor; he hath sent me to proclaim release to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised." (Luke 4:18)
3. Apoluo means "to free fully, i.e. (literally) relieve, release, dismiss, (figuratively) let die, pardon, or (specifically) divorce."  It was used in these two examples in Jesus' words:
- "But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery." (Matthew 5:32 NKJV)
- "Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven." (Luke 6:37 NKJV)
4. Charizomai means "to grant as a favor, i.e. gratuitiously, in kindness, pardon or rescue."  Two examples of English words used by the translators are:
- "And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:32 NKJV)
- "Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Philippians 2:9-11 NKJV)
Although the word "forgive" was used in translation of each of the four main Greek words we just discussed, we cannot assume that they are synonymous. Whatever we perceive to be the meaning of "forgive," we must remember that forgiveness/pardon was granted through Jesus' shed blood. And now, we must follow Jesus by way of the Cross and die to the flesh so His Spirit can be our Life.
The most important type of forgiveness Jesus taught was the forgiveness that we as believers must give and receive as we live on this earth. If we expect the Father to forgive our "trespasses" [Greek: side slips],  we must be willing to forgive the trespasses of others.  How can we not follow the example Jesus set on the Cross when He cried, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do?" (Luke 23:34)
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Pete on November 20, 2008, 09:06:44 am
Quote from: Wordsmith on November 20, 2008, 01:45:32 am

Am I making your eyes do that Pete? LOL..I'm sorry.



It's all good.  A new day, my eyes have stopped spinning...  for the moment.  (http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/th_TFRD323.png)

Quote from: Wordsmith on November 20, 2008, 01:45:32 am

What I'm saying that even though God is the righteous judge that
He is, and some will be punished, doesn't mean that God is holding grudges, or harboring
unforgiveness if they're sentenced. Most people send themselves to judgement. God doesn't have to do anything at all.   So in that respect He's just being the righteous Judge
that He is, minus all the human frailties such as harboring unforgivness. It's not needed or present.  Not that He doesn't have the ablility to choose not to forgive. He chose to commended His love towards us. He chose to do so through
His Son. God made a choice. I'm glad for all of us that He did. So God has the ability to chose to do whatever He so chooses.


So it sounds to me like you're saying that God has the ability to choose unforgiveness, but He doesn't.  Is that what you're saying?

And I'm not sure I'd agree that God has the ability to do whatever He so chooses.  One scripture in particular that riled people up at CF was this one (in 20 different translations (http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/winkcheeky.gif))

____________________________________

Hebrews 6:18 (NIV)
God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged.

Hebrews 6:18 (NASB)
so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us.
Hebrews 6:18 (TMSG)
When God wanted to guarantee his promises, he gave his word, a rock-solid guarantee--God can't break his word. And because his word cannot change, the promise is likewise unchangeable.

Hebrews 6:18 (AMP)
This was so that, by two unchangeable things [His promise and His oath] in which it is impossible for God ever to prove false or deceive us,we who have fled [to Him] for refuge might have mighty indwellingstrength and strong encouragement to grasp and hold fast the hopeappointed for us and set before [us].

Hebrews 6:18 (NLT)
So God has given both his promise and his oath. These two things are unchangeable because it is impossible for God to lie. Therefore, we who have fled to him for refuge can have great confidence as we hold to the hope that lies before us.

Hebrews 6:18 (KJV)
That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

Hebrews 6:18 (ESV)
so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us.

Hebrews 6:18 (CEV)
God cannot tell lies! And so his promises and vows are twothings that can never be changed. We have run to God for safety. Nowhis promises should greatly encourage us to take hold of the hope thatis right in front of us.

Hebrews 6:18 (NKJV)
that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.

Hebrews 6:18 (21st Century KJV)
that by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we, who have fled for refuge, might have strong consolation to lay hold upon the hope set before us.

Hebrews 6:18 (ASV)
that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we may have a strong encouragement, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us:

Hebrews 6:18 (YLT)
that through two immutable things, in which [it is] impossible for God to lie, a strong comfort we may have who did flee for refuge to lay hold on the hope set before [us],

Hebrews 6:18 (Darby)
that by two unchangeable things, in which [it was] impossible thatGod should lie, we might have a strong encouragement, who have fled forrefuge to lay hold on the hope set before us,

Hebrews 6:18 (NLV)
God gave these two things that cannot be changed and God cannot lie. We who have turned to Him can have great comfort knowing that He will do what He has promised.

Hebrews 6:18 (HCSB)
so that through two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to seize the hope set before us.

Hebrews 6:18 (NIRV)
God took an oath so we would have good reason not to give up. Wehave run away from everything else to take hold of the hope offered tous in God's promise. So God gave his promise and his oath. Those twothings can't change. He couldn't lie about them.

Hebrews 6:18 (WNT)
that by two things unmoveable, by which it is impossible that God lie, we have a strongest solace, that flee together to hold the hope that is put forth to us.

Hebrews 6:18 (WENT)
These two things cannot be changed and God cannot lie about them. So we can trust him. We have run to him to get what he has promised us.

Hebrews 6:18 (NIV - UK)
God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged.

Hebrews 6:18 (TNIV)
God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be greatly encouraged.

____________________________________

So here is at least one thing that scripture tells us God CAN NOT (not will not) do.  Lie.  God can not lie.  It is impossible for Him to do so.  Therefore, God can not choose to lie.
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Pete on November 20, 2008, 09:14:27 am
 
Quote from: The Lord is my banner on November 20, 2008, 04:24:08 am

Another question for everyone -

We're trying to define forgiveness based on an English dictionary, but do any of you understand Greek and Hebrew in order to be certain that they were all talking about the same thing we are?
I know those languages usually have a greater, richer meaning per word than we do, so might we be missing something?


I'm no Greek scholar (but I play one on TV...)

(http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/th_TFRD323.png)
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: Wordsmith on November 20, 2008, 01:22:37 pm
Quotequote by Pete..So it sounds to me like you're saying that God has the ability to choose unforgiveness, but He doesn't.  Is that what you're saying?

And I'm not sure I'd agree that God has the ability to do whatever He so chooses.  One scripture in particular that riled people up at CF was this one (in 20 different translations (http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/winkcheeky.gif))


Yeah, I know..But I look at things that God has chosen to do..like it repented Him that He made man. That's a choice,  chose to send the flood..that's a choice, etc etc. But I think what we're looking at is the severity of God, compared to the goodness of God being found thru Jesus Christ. That scripture about Him unable to lie, I would interpret that He's the embodiment of the Spirit of Truth, so He couldn't lie any how.  Satan is the spirit of lies. Yes I think that God if he chose not to forgive, could do it if He wanted to. What about Esau that sought forgiveness with much diligence,  through repenting and many tears, yet couldn't obtain forgiveness? I know this was before Jesus came, but God delt with Esau as He saw fit. To some it might appear that God was unjust, but when He already knows what's in a persons heart, then it's not unjust.

Mat 6:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=6&v=15&t=KJV#15)But if ye
forgive
not men their trespasses, neither will your Father
forgive
your trespasses.


God having the ability not to forgive.
Title: Re: A Very Interesting Point....
Post by: The Lord is my banner on November 20, 2008, 03:58:44 pm
 
Quote from: churchlady on November 20, 2008, 08:59:06 am


Very good point, Sue.  (http://www.hisgraceoasis.com/Smileys/default/doh.gif)Here's something interesting in that regard........

Lost in translation ...



Wow!   See?  The word is so complicated!